George's Bottom Line

Obama is not going to win this argument! It has been clear that he started off saying people who earn 1 Million a year, than he dropped it down to 250,000.00 in his Debate third debate he said 200,000.00 and his recent Web add backs that up see link below. Now we have Biden out there saying 150,000.00 which is a far cry from the 1 Million Obama started at back in 2007!

I think the American People are really starting to open their eyes to this guy and his numbers are slipping very slowly! The New Gallop Poll shows him up only 2 now, and with 6-8% undecided it is not looking good for Team Obama! Below is the link of Obama's web add which he clearly states $200,000.00 not the 250,000.00 he has been saying!

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=79319

George: "With seven days left, I will do everything in my power to make sure he wins the tax arguement"

People are going to believe and hear what they want to believe and hear. If it sounds too good to be true, IT IS.

Tell us George, what then happened when Clinton got in office after he ran on lowering taxes????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

George, you are not being honest.Most of the major polls show he is losing that spin.You media people are really a joke who ever wins.R.I.P media.

Wake up America, do not believe this guy for one minute. Look up his voting record in the Senate. He has lied over and over again and is now getting the American public to fall for his lies. PLEASE PEOPLE WAKE UP BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE.

Dear George:
Of course, Obama will say anything until he get elected, but read this
"3. Obama advocated dramatically increasing taxation on "the rich" even up to the 100% level, arguing that, "there is no limit to taxation if the benefits derived from public services by society measure up to the cost in taxation which they have to pay" (p. 30) and that, "Theoretically, there is nothing that can stop the government from taxing 100% of income so long as the people get benefits from the government commensurate with their income which is taxed." (p. 31).......from "Obama Hid His Father's Socialism From Readers.".. from his own paper.

Sorry dave, you're not being honest with yourself. You right-wingers always got to to blame the media for everything. You are incapable of seeing that it's McCain's argument about keeping business as usual for the rich and and big companies is really the selling point for Obama. Don't go away mad, just go away

Lisa Again: "People are going to believe and hear what they want to believe and hear. If it sounds too good to be true, IT IS."

Exactly. And what I hear John McCain saying is big tax cuts for everyone and reduction in the deficit by cutting pork - which in TOTAL are less than 10% of the annual deficit.

And you think Senator Obama, who admits where and how he'll move to get the budget balanced, is the one spewing too good to be true fantasies?

You really need another job, George, of course you want Obama to win. You ABC people are so prejudiced it is almost laughable. I think all of you, Charles Gibson, Diane Sawyer and you have lost such credibility with the public. I have heard so many people say they will never watch ABC again, whoever wins. I have been watching and the people who are so opposed to you are certainly right. The media is really stupid.

Of course, and George lives in an alternative universe. George has an incentive in saving the Obama candidacy when he corrected him on his faith. Yup, George doesn't have any bias in this...

Repubs scream WOLF some more.

"TRUST US, THIS TIME WE MEAN IT!"

BYE-BYE, REPUBS!

OBAMA = PREZ

McCAIN = TOAST

Yes, Obama is winning the tax argument, and McCain is a fool to have not come up with his own tax plan for the middle class that is the equal to Obama's. If McCain did that, he would win. His advisors are fools too, but he is the one who is listening to them.

But there is a chance McCain still can win, because the public is beginning to see that Obama is a socialist, and the public will not elect a socialist, once they know that's what he is.

It's not the tax argument alone that makes him a socialist. It's that the tax argument is the tip of the iceberg for a whole socialist way of thinking -- including massive wealth redistribution, massive government spending programs so that the government will start giving people what the government is obligated to give them under the due process clause of the constitution (to use Obama's own words in his recently revealed 2001 interview.

It also includes massive socialist judicial activism by the radically liberal judges he will appoint to the Federal Judiciary.

George, your are part of the new TASS regime, correct? I had hope for you after you left the Clinton stronghold, but you have fallen into the pitcher again. You are talented, but you've got to be yourself. Take a chance George, climb over the fence, report a little from each side. It's easy to report on the Dems because they say what everyone wants to hear. That's like copying someone elses test answers. Have some pelotas de steel mi hermano Jorge. You can do it.

So, you GOP apologists still don't get that McCain is a tired, old, wounded warrior fighting a losing battle in this election? Palin, the big drag, is looming behind him like a shadow in a daylight that he cannot run away from. Bush's failed economic policies which McCain voted for 95% of time plague him like a terminal cancer. McCain's judgement is flawed. Keep up with the wishful thinking---it gives temporary relieve in times of hopelessness.

George,
You more than anyone would remember GHWB promising "NO NEW TAXES" in 1992 and still could not beat Billy your old Boss. You would think McCain will have the wisdom to look back and learn a thing or two form that election. But then again his campaign strategy (If there is one) has been nothing but disastrous. What would a person like you who has successfully run two presidential campaigns advise Rick Davis? I heard Chris Matthews the other day suggesting you and Carville call Davis and help him out - since David Axelrod was not willing to do that!

Fools: "Tell us George, what then happened when Clinton got in office after he ran on lowering taxes?"

He balanced the budget, approved welfare reform that halved the rolls, oversaw a major economic expansion, and handed off such a large SURPLUS to President Bush that one of President Bush's first moves was to literally send everyone a few hundred dollar check (and cut taxes, since Republicans seem to love running up the national credit card and can't stand to be without a deficit).

Thanks for the memory. It's a much fonder one than the disaster of Republican "Read my lips: no new taxes."

George Stephanopoulos i so much in love with Obama. He acts like a little B1tch whenever he talks about Obama

Janice, if you dislike ABC so much, why are you on here commenting. George is just telling things from his point of view. The problem with people in the US is that they want their own views, but they want everyone else to agree with them. Learn to respect the fact that others have different opinions and that the reporters for the news media have a right to their own opinion. The problem with Republicans is that they want to supress any opinion that does not support their own. And by the way, I want Obama to win too. That's why I have voted for him. So has my family and my co-workers. Unless you know the entire population of the US and all those who vote, how in the world would you know what the rest of us think.
Obama/Biden 08!!!!

Jake Long: "a whole socialist way of thinking -- including massive wealth redistribution, massive government spending programs so that the government will start giving people what the government is obligated to give them under the due process clause of the constitution "

The word "socialist" actually has a detailed definition, and it does not appear to match what you're talking about. At all. If you want to communicate effetively with people not steeped in the unique re-defined "English" of the far Right, please try to stick to the accepted meaning for words or at least give us how you are redefining them.

Calling Obama's plan socialist is absurd and makes you look rather ignorant of basic political concepts.

Anyone with a brain knows that the tax system right now is not working. McCain wants more of the same. If you agree with him you'll vote for McCain. Like most Americans I want to change the tax structure to get our country back on track.

Jake Long -

Please give a speific example of how he will redistribute the wealth - how he will single handedly cahgne the judicial system and judges, how he will make this republic we live in any more socialistic than it has already become by bailing out the ultra wealthy wall street people.

I don't think anyone seriously believes they're going to receive a tax cut. It's just all talk to get your vote. Get real.

I think the likelihood of the "empty head" Sarah Palin assuming the presidency is the scariest thing of all that the thought of Obama being a 'socialist" pales in comparison.

Clinton lived off Reagan's economy. He did not build one himself. The liberals are pathetic. Support yourselves for once. No more handouts. Stand on your own two feet. Your messiah has no experience and will be even more lost than his supporters are now. Conservatives will survive either way because we are used to working hard for a living and not waiting on the next welfare check in the mail.

lol nice to see all the dams don't come here any more b/c there's no point in arguing with the conservative trolls, there's literally NO way mccain can win other than a national disaster, no presidential candidate has made a come-back this late in the game, Reagan made a comeback at a similar time (i think "2 weeks ago" or something), and Reagan wasn't running in an environment toxic to repubs... that and mccain is no reagan.

So what's up with the R's? guess it's a case of "If you don't like the message,attack the messenger." We've seen it everytime someone comes out with news that doesn't fit with their narrow view. What we hear is "the liberal press." Give us a break guys.

My goodness, is George Stumpulumpugus sleeping with Obama? He defends him and pulls for him more than most men defend and stand up for their wives. What a girl, I can't stand watching him talk, it's like he's always on the verge of crying.

Dear Rob and anyone else living in denial:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=6099188&page=1

I dare you to read it.

Don't you all realize that McCain wants to create jobs for Americans by letting the richest people in this nation keep all their money. Remember Bush did the same thing, and now everyone has as many jobs as they want. The liberal media just tells you all lies about this. They even reported that theU.S. lost 750,000 jobs last year, when Bush really created 1,000,000 jobs! Please vote for McCain and let him and his friends get richer! No Obama.

janice, when was the last time that Hannity and the rest of the Fox noise loud mouths said anything positive about Democrats? They are always accussing the Democrats as "liberals." I guess the Democrats should accuss the Republicans as "conservatives" with a warped economic mentality.

Most of the Obama trolls are really George Stephanopoulos and Jake Tapper.

NBC = Nothing but Barack Channel

chuck

What planet are you on?

Democrats are the Black Party

MLK was a Republican so he was not a real black

I don't doubt for a moment that Obama is winning on the Tax issue by double digits. Americans have had enough of the Republican redisribution (read: theft) of wealth from the middle class to the super rich. By allowing the tax rates to go back to the way they were under Bill Clinton, Obama is simply changing the tax code to bring tax cuts to the people who need them the most, the middle class. If you make more than $250K a year, by all means if a 3.9% tax increase and war with Iran is what you're into, then vote for McSame/YouBetcha. The rest of us making less than $250K will most likely be voting for Obama/Biden.

You right-wing nuts read lies from idiotic publications like World Daily Net and listen to Rush and Hannity's lies then come in here parroting the lies. It's pathetic...get a brain. The McCain campaign are at each other's throats. McCain can't control or run his own campaign effectively so how in the world can you even think he can run the country? There is a reason many Republicans that know McCain have switched over to Obama. Have you ever asked yourself if they know something you don't? That there's good reason they have switched over to Obama.

George!

You are so dishonest and creepy!

Why are so in love with Obama? You have been so biased towards him since day 1. Why?

I dont think he is a bad man and I even think he might be a good president but the media is so dishonest in their portrayal of him. He is not the Messiah......

you will see....

I use to belong to the NAZI party until i got to fat to wear them sexy NAZI uniforms

Oh how the Repugs are on the postings tonight! Blame everyone for what ails.....the media....the Dems....the trees.....the grass.......
So quick to point the finger and never taking ownership for their own mistakes.
laughable

HEY 539 you left out thru the entire decade 0f the 1990s his inaction everytime we were attacked led to the events of sept.11,also he put mr. Carters community reinvestmnt act on steroids is the genesis of the housing fiasco we now find ourselves in.....Finally,the man who was supposed to rep. us all and be the standard bearer of American character and greatness was nothing more than a morally bankrupt filthard............

It's so funny reading the conservatives posts. They just keep repeating hoax E-mails, word for word. They don't have a clue and are living the in the fear generated by the Bushites. You conservatives just need to give it up because you're not going to change anyones opinion with those discounted lies, except to make more of them vote Obama. You're better off staying off these message boards if you want McCain to have a chance.

Most of the Obama trolls are really George Stephanopoulos and Jake Tapper.

NBC = Nothing but Barack Channel
______________________________________

Except you are on ABC.

I wonder what ABC is going to say when McCain wins next tuesday, I know that they want nobama to win but it aint going to happen. These polls are so one sided and inaccurate.

George Stephanopoulos if we would of followed your Obama love logic fighting the British in the revolutionary war that nobody defeated the British or even more recently the Iraq war we would be all wearing the Nazi Swatstiki right now.

George Stephanopoulos loves Obama we already know that.

I use to belong to the NAZI party until i got to fat to wear them sexy NAZI uniforms
____________________

I bet you take pride in being an imbecile.

Just remember Dems, that if you lose this election you CAN NOT cry voter fraud. You are the ones that have so desperately argued that ACORN will not be a problem and that voter fraud is so small it's not a problem. Remember, voter registration fraud is not voter fraud. So none of you weinies cry about it if you lose!

25% reduction in military defense and raising taxes on 5% of Americans doesn't add up to the trillion in new BHO spending. Of course he's got to tax everyone. McCain is saying Americans pay enough and he'd like to see it spent more wisely. Can't argue with that.

ABC-All Barack Channel

George Stephanopoulos and Obama sitting in a tree K I S S I N G

Posted by: chuck | Oct 28, 2008 7:41:40 PM

Obama is not going to win this argument! It has been clear that he started off saying people who earn 1 Million a year, than he dropped it down to 250,000.00 in his Debate third debate he said 200,000.00 and his recent Web add backs that up see link below. Now we have Biden out there saying 150,000.00 which is a far cry from the 1 Million Obama started at back in 2007!

I think the American People are really starting to open their eyes to this guy and his numbers are slipping very slowly! The New Gallop Poll shows him up only 2 now, and with 6-8% undecided it is not looking good for Team Obama! Below is the link of Obama's web add which he clearly states $200,000.00 not the 250,000.00 he has been saying!

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=79319
________________________________________

No Chuck, your eyes seem to be the only ones that are open. You can't believe half of the info on the net. I know, you are going to say that's reliable, But I say WHO CARES,it's too late in the game. You aren't interested in taxes, YOU JUST HATE PRESIDENT OBAMA!

Wouldn't the Democrats winning the tax argument be more applicable if the Republicans had not turned their main party platform of fiscal conservatism into a joke?

Most of the Obama trolls are really George Stephanopoulos and Jake Tapper.

NBC = Nothing but Barack Channel
______________________________________

Except you are on ABC.
Paige
-----------------------------

LOL

So what's your point Jimbo? Who are you gonna blame When McCain loses?......

Okay,okay: enough of this media bias. From now on ABC should say that McCain is leading in all polls. That will make the Republicans apologists very happy. How's that for a change?

If getting a tax break for America's middle class is called socialism, then let me sign up for it today. I was once a Regan Republican.

ABC is the All Barack Channel

I just love George Stephanopoulos comb over hair doo

ABC-All Barack Channel

George Stephanopoulos and Obama sitting in a tree K I S S I N G
____________________________________

OMG! hi-jack a posters name and provide this tidbit.

Classy...

chad: "HEY 539 you left out thru the entire decade 0f the 1990s his inaction everytime we were attacked led to the events of sept.11"

When President Clinton tried to kill Bin Laden, Republicans DENOUNCED HIS ATTACK ON BIN LADEN ON THE SENATE FLOOR. Don't you remember the impassioned speeches about "Monica missiles?" Thanks for putting scoring partisan points ahead of killing Bin Laden BEFORE 9/11.

I remember the 90's well, and I still have not forgiven the Republicans for their craven partisan antics that time has only made look more damning. You can live in your Big Lie reality, but the majority of America can remember more than what they heard on talk radio a few hours ago and reality has unmasked Republican incompetence time and again.

Why was Martin Luther King a Republican. He must be stupid and racist

Hopefully this election will send what's left of the Republican coalition of religious wing-nuts, know-nothings, neocolonialist neoconservatives, and jingoism to its natural dead-end. Ron Paul endorsed BJ Lawson in the 4th district in North Carolina. We need more people like this in Congress. I was impressed enough to donate to his campaign and I don't even live there.

For those among you who have more money than you will ever need, save your time and don't read this.

For the rest of us who are still working with mortgages, children and grandchildren or retired living on a pension and or Social Security perhaps
you will take a couple of minutes to read the proposed changes in the American tax system.

CAPITAL GAINS TAX

MCCAIN
0% on home sales up to $500,000 per home (couples) McCain does not propose
any change in existing home sales income tax.

OBAMA
28% on profit from ALL home sales

How does this affect you?
If you sell your home and make a profit, you will
pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28%
of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes
as part of their retirement income.

DIVIDEND TAX

MCCAIN 15% (no change)

OBAMA 39.6%

How will this affect you?
If you have any money invested in stock market,
IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama become president. The experts predict
that higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.

INCOME TAX

MCCAIN (no changes)

Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250

OBAMA
(Reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)
Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 125K - tax $38,750

Under Obama your taxes will more than double!

How does this affect you?
No explanation needed. This is pretty straight forward.

INHERITANCE TAX

MCCAIN 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)

OBAMA Restore the inheritance tax

How does this affect you?
Many families have lost businesses, farms and
ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to
loved ones will not only lose them to these taxes.

NEW TAXES BEING PROPOSED BY OBAMA

* New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet

* New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already)

* New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water,
electricity)

* New taxes on retirement accounts and last but not least....

* New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level
of medical care as other third-world countries!!!

The first poster needs to improve his reading comprehension. Obama's plan raises taxes 3 percent after $200,000 of TAXABLE income for singles and $250,000 for married people. Watch him on Wednesday night as he spells out his economic proposals.
Meanwhile, McCain wants to continue the Bush tax cuts that he called "unconscionable" (another word for unscrupulous) a few years ago. McCain has sold out completely to the religious right and to the wealthy elite who have been running the country for the past 8 years!
Definitely...Vote Obama!!!

Don't blame George for stating a fact. I know facts upset wing-nuts.

The republican ideology has proven to be wrong on practically all fronts. They're wrong on deregulation. They're wrong on their economic trickle down theory. They're wrong about weapons of mass destruction, the reason for the Iraq war. They're wrong about global warming. They've made a mess of our economy, environment, and left our reputation in tatters. No wonder Obama is doing well! Wake up people. You can't keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. That, my friends, is the definition of insanity!

You have to be kidding!

Did you know, according University of California economist who did the research, that after WWII until 1976 that 95% of American's income increased 64% and top 1% increased 20%? Those were boom years for American middle class. After republicans began to dominate the White House and up till now, the bottom 95% have seen a decrease in income and the top 1% have seen their income increase 232%. 232%! That was not an accident. It was arranged by greed, by laws to favor the wealthy, by tax loop holes for the wealthy etc. There has not been this large a gap between the top and bottom since just before the great depression. If we keep it up, we'll get another great depression because the economy is out of balance. Trickle down isn't working. If it was, with that large an increase in wealth for the top 1%, the country should be booming. It isn't socialism to return the tax rate to what it was before Bush's "temporary" tax cut. The top 1% now have a collective wealth of $19 Trillion and the other three hundred million Americans have a collective wealth of $17 Trillion. America's economy and the world's economy that depends on it does not work unless America's middle class is doing well and buying stuff. The middle class can't do that if big corporations move all the jobs to foreign countries to increase their bottom line on cheap labor with no environmental controls and tax breaks for doing it. We'd better smarten up. Vote Obama if you're hoping that your kids will live in an America you knew. In all these months and after three debates, John McCain has not shown any important ways that his economic policies differ from George W. Bush's. He hasn't been six months since the last time that McCain bragged to the Wall Street Journal that they would never interview a bigger de-regulator than he is. It is insanity when something isn't working to cling to it because you're afraid to try something new.

I am a hippy drug freak from the sixties that thinks the COMMUNE way of living is the GROOVY way to go.

Support spreading the wealth so i can continue my lazy non working drug binge for ever. VOTE FOR OBAMA

seansatx....I'm not going to blame anyone if McCain loses. You win some you lose some...I don't expect to get a trophy when I lose and then cry when I don't get one.

Jimbo: "Just remember Dems, that if you lose this election you CAN NOT cry voter fraud. "

There are already documented video evidence of electronic machines 'magically' flipping votes from Obama to McCain. But as a typical Republican you may not understand living in a reality based world where complaints are preceded by actual observed occurrences rather than talking point memos and fabrications. A voter form for Mickey Mouse flagged as likely fraudulent before getting handed in is in no way equivalent to video evidence of voting machines magically and repeatably malfunctioning in McCain's favor.

I was off today and decided to listen to Hennedy and Savage. I have decided that I will switch my vote to McCain.--------------JUST KIDDING!! These guys didnt once talk about any merits of McCains. All they did was slam Obama and hype on ACORN and Ayers. Hennedy is realy something. Once in a while he will let a Obama phone caller come on. It obvious that he only lets the Obama callers come on that are clueless and not well up on the facts or in intelligence. Hennedy is full of it and Savage is full of himself. I dont even grace Rush with my ears. What a couple of idiots and they dont realize what McCain and Palin dont realize. If they spen as much time talking and selling McCains ideas and merits they could have had a real shot, but instead they have devoted all their time to smear. The Rove way of politics has gone to the past where it belongs.

Mr. Impersonator, I'll fix you with closing all my posts with

Obama/Biden 08 :-)

Wow!!!
I guess 95% of working Americans really DO WANT a tax cut after all!

I know this is just crazy to say, and you will all try to cut my arms off for saying, but don't you think that maybe, just maybe there is a greater disparity in the richest and poorest is because there are a lot fewer people willing to bust their butts to get to the top, and their are a whole, I mean WHOLE lot more of people that are willing to just sit back and basically take what life gives them? I know, I know, that is totally untrue. I'm sure 50 years ago the work ethic was the same as it is today, I'm sure there were just as many willing to sit back and soak up welfare, and government assistance, I'm sure that everyone with money these days only got it by stealing, right? So pathetic, if you want more GO MAKE MORE, who can argue with that? Go get a better education and bust your butt to work up the ladder....most of you are too comfortable to DO SO SO STOP WHINING!

this liberal dem is voting mccain; have lied to pollsters who called and i think their are many like me. surprise! on nov. 4th.

McCain is zero in economics as he himself admitted. Does he even know of anything that is going with policies? Does he even know that his policy gives 200 billion to biggest corporations and 4 billion to oil companies? Does he realize that his 300 billion plan to buy home mortages is in Republican terms "extreme socialism"? Does he realize that the 700 billion bailout he was so eager to push through is a major "redistribution of wealth"? I bet he does not understand the meaning of "socialism" - just heard of it in cold war era movies!

Anyone who has ever voted for President based on tax issues, has voted to redistribute wealth. The ONLY question is whether we redistribute it up or down. Bush redistributed it upward, and now we want it BACK.

I don't disagree with those who are saying the masssive bailouts of wall streets elite is not a horrendous action.

But that does nothing to argue against the massive socialistic upheaval that Obama wants to put into effect.

Anyone who doubts that Obama wants to put a masssive socialistic upheaval into effect should listen closely to that 2001 interview that appeared yesterday. It is frightening. It is far worse even than most people are talking about. It's not just a phrase or two about "redistribution of wealth". It goes far beyond that. It is very chilling. There is no way around how chilling it actually is. That's why the Obama people are simply trying to ignore it -- like he always did when solid arguments were made against him in the debates. Ignoring means it doesn't exist, or so they like to pretend.

Vote for Obama if you like lies

Martin Luther King was a RACIST Republican

Obama/Biden 08 :-)

republicans will never learn. depression under hoover (republican), the guy who got us out of it, roosevelt, a (democrat.) the guy who caused this recession "W" a (republican), the guy who gets us out of it, Obama (democrat.) history truely does repeat itself. the conservative movement is dead, long live the republican party.

I am going to stage RACE RIOTS all over the country when Obama loses

Obama/Biden 08 :-)

The only people voting for McCain are low information voters which unfortunately, we know our country has too many of, hence Bush winning twice. Obama will actually do something to help our children get a better education which will better our country.

Obama/Biden '08

Why are the polls never right when it is against the McCain camp . it's always the bias liberal media this and that . Now if we are going to use polls then let's take them for there word and because some McCain/Paline supporter does not agree fair enough, but you can't have it both ways.

ron

Oh yes, that makes sense! Lie to pollsters so that you will later have to convince us that you lied to pollsters and therefore the polls are wrong. LOL

Wouldn't it just be easier to tell the truth and thus SHOW us that the real polls are different?