George's Bottom Line

Surely I can't be the only person watching this morning who is waiting to hear that the CEOs of the Big Three are grounding the jets and refusing to take their bonus this year; as a matter of fact, they should return their bonuses from 07. I'll bet they could afford it with the perks they've had over the years. CEOs who fail to lead don't get bonuses, they get fired. Meantime the business that my husband and I started three years ago is suffering from a consumer lack of confidence in the market because all eyes and monies are headed in the direction of the Big Banks and the auto business instead of helping small business, which supports more families than the banks and auto business combined.

next, our elected officials (senator's congressmen and their stafff's) should fly commercial as well.

I went shopping in part of my town, Rochester, Michigan where in the shadows of the assembly plants the workers were deciding what to forgo on a Thanksgiving dinner purchase pushing the sparsely filled carts. Later, I went to a gourmet high-end market to pick up my son who works there. It was surreal. Shoppers were happily filling their carts, almost giddy with excitement for the upcoming holidays. These shoppers are the corporate workers, just like the CEO's, they just don't get it. Is there really a "doom and gloom" climate here? Get rid of the corporate federal tax-write off concerning CEO/executive incentives/pay and maybe the taxpayer will actually gain a dollar (million or so?) and maybe it will force the corporate investors to rethink their way of CEO accountibility and really make a product the consumer wants. QUALITY!

Calling Sarah Palin! We have jets for you to sale!

i heard that auto workers were making over 70 bucks an hour that does not include benefits medical etc?

ceo's are make millions, the whole pay structure needs to be restructured starting with ceo pay and on down the line.

There won't be any small businesses if the "Big Two" fail. If one goes, they ALL go and that includes the transplants here who have sucked up billions in taxpayer money as state governments have bribed them to settle in their states. All panel members make some excellent points, but isn't this a LOAN rather than a gift? You can try using some loose logic that says this will be a gift if they eventually fail, but the reality is, if it comes down to failure, we might as well kiss ourselves goodbye. If the government is going to mandate safety, pollution and fuel economy standards, some of which are good and some of which are not, then the government should do what it takes to support these companies in achieving those goals. Why did GM destroy all those electric vehicles... no one wanted them. There HAS to be affordability for the masses. Maybe the government should be doing the R&D on alternative fuels and the required supporting infrastructure and give it free to all the AMERICAN automakers. In closing, it would do well for people who are commenting on, or voting on this loan package to have at least a basic understanding of both business principles and the specifics of the US auto industry.

AUTO WORKERS BAILOUT.........I am so torn on this matter. My heart says they should get the money and help the workers keep their jobs and benefits, my gut says even if they get the money the workers will still be let go. After all look at the pattern, AIG got money and went on not 1 but 2 vacations (they chose to call them meetings), $710 billion to help homeowners, no mortgages saved yet, why should anyone in their right mind believe jobs will be saved if the Auto Industry gets money. Ironically the push for AW bailout is so close to when Xmas bonuses are given. Big question, who will get them, CEO's or lower level workers? Think about it!.......THE TAXPAYERS ARE NOT THE SALVATION SANTA!!.................................These are the guys who right up until September 1, 2008 said the economy is fundamentally sound. While there is enough blame on both sides I think we have all come to realize the far right has been far worse on regulation. We are dealing with a bunch of despicable, deplorable liars and thieves.

All CEO must step down without bonus or severance. You can't keep a leadership that doesn't lead.

The union must go and wages/benefits must be cut back. You can't make these same wages and sell to an American public that can't afford your product.

We need to see the new budget for the car makers clearly set forth with all the perks gone.

If you can't do it, file for bankruptcy and get out of the big picture.

It was reported that GM will sell two of its five personal jets. That still leaves three. Maybe my math capabilities are better than the CEO of GM. Maybe I should apply for his job.

Pete, the government is telling the auto industries to come up with a plan and THEN they'll get the government's money (our money - yours, too)to help with it! I don't blame government officials one bit for this, and that's basically what we're all saying here.

Picture the image of the auto execs arriving in their private jets, begging for huge cash subsidies from congress.

I suppose $millions in annual income tends to insulate one from ordinary notions of expense.

I believe one of the major problems we face as a society is the concentrated power vested in the executive officers of large corporations. The outlandish compensation packages they receive is an indication of this power. The current financial and economic problems we face is a result of the abuse of that power.

Give power back to the share-holders and employees. The laws governing corporate behavior need revision. These massive institutions can not be granted the same rights as individuals. They should be treated as the quasi-governmental bodies that they are.

The UAW wished they making $70/hr! That time has long since been gone (usually that pay was overtime and families not having to spend with each other). The UAW has made many concessions that has slowly brought the worker into a new class: the working-poor receiving $14/hr pay scale if they are lucky to get there.
While I drive through their neighborhoods you would think there is not an economic crisis with all the new mega-mansion building and renovations being done.

When it was announced on a local newscast that 3 of the 5 jets were being placed "inactive" for the time being as part of the new proposal. The news anchor scouffed and stated that they were planning on doing that previously anyway.
Where is Sarah Palin when you need her?!

I agree with the US government partnering to R&D energy efficiency. But, If "we the people" are going to LOAN the carmakers the money we need to have a reasonable chance at being repaid at a reasonable interest rate.

These CEO's already showed how really out of touch and stupid they are by showing up with their high class and attitiude jets. That is just a small portion of what's wrong in those companies

pete regarding your comment;... do well for people who are commenting on, or voting on this loan package to have at least a basic understanding of both business principles and the specifics of the US auto industry...

we have the ivy league educated in charge of our economy and look at the mess we are in. much of what has happened to our economy requires the understanding of one principle, which is GREED.

Dena Arellanes thank you for the information. i did not realize the pay scale was so low.

You know those three just really need to go.

Hasn't there been an Ivy Leaguer (of sorts) in office for 8 years now?

Now we get an Ivy Leaguer with intellectual capability that will stay out of the "saddle" and bring this country back to a thriving economy with "respect."

I am a registered Democrat that voted for Obama, and yet I found myself agreeing 100% with the Senator from Alabama, that the best opportunity to save the automakers was in using Chapter 11 to reorganize. They need new leadership. A fish stinks from its head. I wish for Lee Iocacca.

The big automakers are failing because the stucture of the economy is changing. Other giants, such as ATT, GE, Chrysler, faced this crisis earlier and survived. I would like to see more coverage of what these guys did.

I really like Kuttner, professionalize human services!!!! Technology is changing, we must change our economic structure with it. By giving more money to the states so that they can expand rather than their current contraction, we are giving money to people that WILL spend -- on food and necessities. Giving money to the middle class, they will NOT spend.

Our Greatest Smartest Changest Leader voted for $160 billion bailout of AIG, $30 billion for Morgan Chase, $300 billion for Mortgage companies, $700 billion for Wall Street bankers. Yet, he refuses to spend a merely $25 billion to save more than 4 million jobs of blue collar workers.

Surely the CEOs of the big 3 fly private jets and make millions; what our Smartest Leader Pres 0bama does not tell you is that the CEOs of AIG, Morgan Chase, FannieMae, Banks also fly private jets and make even more millions of dollars. That's what a phony deceptionist is about.

$1.5 trillion for the super rich our Greatest Leader is so happy to give, but $25 million to save Middle Class, hard labor jobs of America, our Smartest Leader can tell you many phony excuses that he can rationalize to refuse help.

Change We Can Believe In!

Hope can help you feel-good, even you lose your jobs.

I have heard that Toyota sold two million cars in Japan last year? And isn't it true that American car companies are not allowed to build factories there by Japanese law? And isn't it also true that to export cars to Japan one has to go through about six months of government red tape and inspections per car? And isn't it true that the legacy costs to Japanese manufacturers in Japan are as great or greater than in the U. S. because they have what is called lifetime employment? Is it not true that Toyota and GM have parity in total worldwide production numbers? And because Toyota was able to sell two million cars in it's own closed market, would not that imply that GM sells two million more vehicles everywhere else? Does anyone know what percentage of vehicles sold on Japanese soil are foreign made? Do Japanese automobile manufacturers enjoy monopoly power in Japan? Would it not be true that by giving those companies monopoly power the Japanese government is subsidizing those companies at the expense of the Japanese consumer? And since Japan is subsidizing their auto industry does that not put American domestic brands at a competitive disadvantage (since one half or more of all Japanese branded cars sold in the U.S.A. are made in Japan)? Is it worth it to us to forever cede our manufacturing base to Japan (and others) for a brief downturn, easily bridged, with a relatively small amount of capital? Is it not true that the American domestic brands pay billions in taxes per year? Would it not be unwise to give up these taxes forever in the future, for lack of financing now?

Wasn't it Congress that required back seat car seats for children under twelve? A family of three needs a SUV.

If the plan that GM comes up with does not including throwing the UAW out then no taxpayer money should be given to them. The mangement at GM is reponsible for allowing the unions to destroy their business and they should also be shown the door for being poor stewards of their company.

When GM pays $71/hr on average and Toyota only pays $47 there is a real issue with inappropriate concessions to the unions. GM will never recover until the labor cost imbalance is addressed. In the mean time, companies like Toyota and Hyundai will continue to make higher quality cars in Mississippi, Alabama, and my own state of Texas using American workers. These right-to-work states offer a better business environment for GM as they emerge from bankruptcy, they should seriously consider relocating as part of this restructuring.

Just wanted to say a belated Thank You to George Stephanopoulos and Charles Gibson.
Their appalling shallowness in the Clinton/Obama debate made it clear that you're really a celebrity magazine, and I haven't watched a single Sunday morning show since. Thanks for the enormous savings of my precious time!!

No WORKABLE plan-a, no manna from the taxpayers for the Big 3 automakers. I watched those CEOs in the clips from their appeal to Congress. There wasn't a drop of humility among the 3 of them. All they projected was a collective sense of entitlement. Those 3 have their heads so far in the clouds it's pathetic. In spite of the deep inroads Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. have made in the Big 3s market share,these CEOs have made minimal, half-hearted efforts to be competitive with foreign automakers, sitting back in their ivory towers, raking in huge salaries, bonuses and perks while driving their respective companies to the brink of insolvency. The factory workers don't make $70/hr. -- that's a modern myth. The jets ALL have to go. Let the CEOs travel 1st class; if these guys are so fearful of their personal safety, let them be accompanied by an armed security guard - factoring in the salaries and expenses for these guards, it'd still be a fraction of the cost of
maintaining a fleet of luxury jets strictly for the use of these apparently useless and overpaid CEOs. When they come back before Congress in 2 weeks, they'd better have more than tin cups in their hands. They'd each better have detailed plans of exactly how they intend to use the loans they want from us, as well as exactly how they intend to repay it.

In the latest UAW contract starting workers make less than 15 dollars an hour with limited benefits. Also retiree health care benefits are going to be reduced through a VEBA administered through the union. If we really want to be fair let's just run our country like the Japanese run their country. Life time employment, government control of market and product, huge subsidies for export, closed markets to imports through regulation and red tape, and less than 2% foreign people.

marswind, the problem with GM and the UAW goes back a long time. Now that the union has finally realized they have overreached and killed the golden goose they are belatedly making concessions. It is too little, too late. Given their disregard for their company it is likely they will make similar, unreasonable demands in the future if GM is fortunate enough to survive. The UAW is a cancer and they must be removed for the long term health of GM and other American auto makers. Why should we give the UAW a second chance when they showed their singular motive for higher wages at any cost? If the UAW still exist there should be no bailout!

I have heard so many times that the Big Three should be condemned for building gas guzzlers for so many years. Nobody complained until gas hit $3.00 a gallon, and more. Everybody was buying those and not their cars. Now that no one wants a large vehicle the Big Three are ostracized. They built and sold what the people wanted, that,s it!

Coming from a large family with 3 generations of GM employees/retirees, I've seen this culture of entitlement at its worst. My father, grandfather, great-grandfather and uncles are all retirees of GM and have paid absolutely nothing for health care until now. A year ago, they were told that they would be responsible for a $5 copay at doctor's visits--$5!! The outrage that ensued was unlike any seen: "How dare the union do this to us?" "After all we've done for Them!" " This means war!". My response: "Welcome to the real world". That's something completely absent for the proceedings with the Big 3 today--reality.

The reality is that the financial crisis did not "decimate our domestic manufacturing capabilities" as your e-mail noted; the Big 3 and the UAW did it quite well on there own. Decades of autoworkers getting paid $60+ /hr. (and in too many instances, to read the Detroit Free Press and drink coffee all day...), buying the cottage up north, a new car every year, and other "toys" adds up, particularly when you save nothing and expect The Union to take care of you. There's something else absent here--personal responsibility; both on the parts of the Big 3 and the workers. As a taxpayer and child of a former autoworker, I don't want to pay for the sins of my father or anyone elses father for that matter.

Yes, if the Big 3 go under, it will more than hurt. But this is business and survival of the fittest is just that, lest we not forget about Toyota, Honda, and countless others who are somehow still making it.

Change the tax laws and let America compete. There are reasons we don't make things in this country. There is a reason Japan and Chinese each hold a trillion in U.S. dollars each. They would love nothing better than to totally dominate the U.S. by eliminated our last sole industrial giant. If you are spouting of a lot of stuff you know nothing about then I can't argue with each of you. But it is my hope that some of you are patriots and you understand the magnitude of the problem. That you value the American middle class and that you believe in making money and not just borrowing it from Japan and China. The domestic car companies produce wealth and pay a great deal of taxes. They pay collectively, with their workers, far more in taxes than what they are asking to borrow.

Marswind, while our tax structures are unfair to many business, you have missed the point completely. Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, and Honda all make cars in US plants. They pay taxes just like GM and Ford. The problem is GM is paying $71/hr for labor while Toyota is only paying $47/hr. Other foreign auto makers also pay less than US brands. This cannot continue. Each car made by GM has its price inflated by $2000-$2500 based on this disparity in labor costs. This is a direct reflection of unions seeking to extract every concession they can from the US auto makers. Bankruptcy is the only means by which GM can undo the union contracts and restore their labor cost to competitive levels.

I repeat.I have heard that Toyota sold two million cars in Japan last year? And isn't it true that American car companies are not allowed to build factories there by Japanese law? And isn't it also true that to export cars to Japan one has to go through about six months of government red tape and inspections per car? And isn't it true that the legacy costs to Japanese manufacturers in Japan are as great or greater than in the U. S. because they have what is called lifetime employment? Is it not true that Toyota and GM have parity in total worldwide production numbers? And because Toyota was able to sell two million cars in it's own closed market, would not that imply that GM sells two million more vehicles everywhere else? Does anyone know what percentage of vehicles sold on Japanese soil are foreign made? Do Japanese automobile manufacturers enjoy monopoly power in Japan? Would it not be true that by giving those companies monopoly power the Japanese government is subsidizing those companies at the expense of the Japanese consumer? And since Japan is subsidizing their auto industry does that not put American domestic brands at a competitive disadvantage (since one half or more of all Japanese branded cars sold in the U.S.A. are made in Japan)? Is it worth it to us to forever cede our manufacturing base to Japan (and others) for a brief downturn, easily bridged, with a relatively small amount of capital? Is it not true that the American domestic brands pay as much as 147 billion in taxes per year? Would it not be unwise to give up these taxes forever in the future, for lack of financing now?

My point is that the foreign car companies DO NOT pay taxes like the domestic companies do. The 700,000 retiress the big three are supporting are included in that 71 dollars an hour figure. The upper management in Japan is not included in the Toyota figure. Are we talking apples and oranges? Where is this data collected. Does anyone know where these figures are coming from?

Why is it so hard for all of these analyst and talking heads to get it. Take that 750 or should i say 950 billion and dis purse it to every LEGAL AMERICAN CITIZEN In the USA, with instructions as follows:
You have 2 years to spend this money as a deposit on a new home, a new AMERICAN CAR ,and any AMERICAN PRODUCTS. The balance to be financed by Citigroup, and insurance to be supplies by AI BIG.
Depression Over! Wake UP

Why is it that everyone seems to forget thet the domestic automakers ARE the taxpayers? They aren't asking for more than they pay. They just want to borrow some of THEIR OWN MONEY back! How stupid to tax someone to death and then say they did it to themselves. Does anyone realize that fully a third or more of those supposed 71 dollar labor costs are TAXES??

Unbeliaveable, Congress/Governtment people telling CEOs of the Automaker Companies, that they are a bunch of no good for nothing. In others words, because they haven't made good decisions for their Companies....Wow, this coming from the people that run the Federal Governtment....Are they sound and look smart now that they are looking into someone else. They are a bunch of hipocriates, This Congress people are to be ashame of telling anyone that they are incompetence. No one is buying what they said and what the media report....again the (Media)is dancing at the beat of the Governtment music .....(Irak Invasion allover again).

Why doesn't Bob Nardelli idiot CEO that tanked Home Depot take now tanking Chrysler to a higher level with the money he stole from Home Depot?! I swear I don't know why he's allowed to breathe.

All the man is good for is to bag groceries at the supermarket.

Carlos has it exactly right. Congress complains about how the automakers SPEND MONEY. HA, THAT'S A HOOT!!

Why doesn't Bob Nardelli idiot CEO that tanked Home Depot take now tanking Chrysler to a higher level with the money he stole from Home Depot?! I swear I don't know why he's allowed to breathe.

All the man is good for is to bag groceries at the supermarket.

Re: Kuttner's comments on Round Table that GM killed the electric car in the '90's and it proves that they are out of touch: the GM electric car was a TERRIBLE car! It had less room than a Miata, and on the test drive they wouldn't let us go over 30 mph. They told us the car had a range of 50 miles, if I remember right. Anyway, I wouldn't have bought one for $10. A Yugo was a better buy.

For those Chemists out there demanding an electric car, go to Wikipedia and look up "Lithium-ion battery." Maybe after reading that, one might gather some insight as to how hard it is to build a battery that lasts ten years, fully discharges every day, doesn't blow up in flames, and works in extreme hot and cold. It turns out that a 400 pound battery equals one gallon of gas at 40 miles per gallon. Yesterday I bought gas at $1.53 a gallon at Kroger.

Before we throw mud at the big 3, we should take stock of this: They gave us exactly what we wanted- very good, safe, reliable vehicles. The SUV's, vans and trucks we're driving don't get great fuel mileage, but we told the dealers that's not what we're looking for. The fault is OURS, folks. WE bought 'em. ..And as for the corporate jets, did you really expect them to carpool to Washington in a Focus? Get REAL.

The car companies are asking for a revolving line of credit. They may not even need it. They just need to know they can get it if they need it. They set up lines of credit months and years ahead. A Capitalist system has to provide capital. This is a test of Capitalism.

Are the big 3 CEO's going to have a legitimate plan or is it going to be some sales pitch they developed the night before meeting with congress? They came unprepared the last time and they never listened to the consumer before and they don't have the scientific staff to build the car of the future. sense of entitlement=ruin. Also, If a country is going to excise high tariffs on American goods expect the same in return here. Unfair trade practices should be also be addressed in competing with the rest of the world.

It's as if the auto execs went to a casino, drank heavily, bet big, and played badly. Now, having lost on every bet, it is OUR responsibility, despite their bad calls, to make them - without any real plan -and their companies whole?

Three execs (THEIR AVERAGE WAGE IS $250,000 A WEEK!) ARE out of touch they fly in their three corporate jets "with tin cups in hand," as one Senator put it, appear asking for money but offering no plan in exchange, blaming their company troubles on everything and everybody but themselves.

General Motors says it's been burning through cash at a pace of more than $2 billion a month and that it could run short of money by mid-2009 without federal help. Chrysler told the NYTimes it would lay off about 1,825 workers at year-end, saying that it lost about $660 million in the second quarter, including $570 million from its automotive business.

The privately held Chrysler, citing differences in international accounting standards, disputed a report from its minority owner, Daimler, that put the quarterly loss at about $772.5 million.

Before they get to pick the taxpayer's pockets, some soul-searching needs to occur.

American auto industry problems were apparent back in 2005. Even then, GM was losing BIG money.

GM, described as “the best of the Big Three,” needed 32.36 hours to produce a vehicle compared with just 29.93 hours for Toyota.

Japanese profits per vehicle were significantly higher than GM which lost money on every one. Toyota made $1,433; Honda, $1,250; Nissan, $1,603. Ford had the highest profit per car among the Big Three, at $620; and GM LOST on every car -- $1,436 per vehicle in 2006, not a sustainable long-term strategy.

(The losses reflected a variety of factors, including the large difference in health care and pension costs, as well as rebates and low-interest-rate financing, according to Motor Trend)

And then there are those union contracts. GM's UAW labor force makes $78 an hour in wages and benefits, while the company is losing $3 BILLION A MONTH.

America's biggest autoparts maker Delphi declared bankruptcy. Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi's restructuring process dispelled the "myth of America's "endangered" union manufacturing jobs, saying "We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain competitive."

Grass cutting? As defined by the current UAW contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets.

In the real world, the grass and toilets could be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, people doing those jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average of $60,000 a year plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour.

But at least the grass cutters actually do a bit of work for their pay, because the current UAW contract also guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing.

The Detroit News reports: "12,000 American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a "Jobs Bank.." These aren't jobs. And they certainly aren't being "lost" to China. "We just go in (to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant) and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," one UAW worker told the News. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

American taxpayers being asked to help are having our own financial worries, and If you held a national referendum on it, they aren't likely to vote to make "good" the long series of bad bets made by high-flying, low-talent auto execs with help from the union Prez they're so chummy with.

BUT - every auto job supports up to a dozen jobs in related supplier industries, so there's considerable risk if we don't in some sensible way help the automakers.

Pelosi and Reid and Obama's soon to be chief of staff this week that the Big Three needs help -- but first, they need to help themselves, and come to Congress with a plan that does not reward the captains and crew that steered the ship into the iceberg. And it should not reward stockholders for having joined the cruise.

It's as if the auto execs went to a casino, drank heavily, bet big, and played badly. Now, having lost on every bet, it is OUR responsibility, despite their bad calls, to make them - without any real plan -and their companies whole?

Three execs (THEIR AVERAGE WAGE IS $250,000 A WEEK!) ARE out of touch they fly in their three corporate jets "with tin cups in hand," as one Senator put it, appear asking for money but offering no plan in exchange, blaming their company troubles on everything and everybody but themselves.

General Motors says it's been burning through cash at a pace of more than $2 billion a month and that it could run short of money by mid-2009 without federal help. Chrysler told the NYTimes it would lay off about 1,825 workers at year-end, saying that it lost about $660 million in the second quarter, including $570 million from its automotive business.

The privately held Chrysler, citing differences in international accounting standards, disputed a report from its minority owner, Daimler, that put the quarterly loss at about $772.5 million.

Before they get to pick the taxpayer's pockets, some soul-searching needs to occur.

American auto industry problems were apparent back in 2005. Even then, GM was losing BIG money.

GM, described as “the best of the Big Three,” needed 32.36 hours to produce a vehicle compared with just 29.93 hours for Toyota.

Japanese profits per vehicle were significantly higher than GM which lost money on every one. Toyota made $1,433; Honda, $1,250; Nissan, $1,603. Ford had the highest profit per car among the Big Three, at $620; and GM LOST on every car -- $1,436 per vehicle in 2006, not a sustainable long-term strategy.

(The losses reflected a variety of factors, including the large difference in health care and pension costs, as well as rebates and low-interest-rate financing, according to Motor Trend)

And then there are those union contracts. GM's UAW labor force makes $78 an hour in wages and benefits, while the company is losing $3 BILLION A MONTH.

America's biggest autoparts maker Delphi declared bankruptcy. Steve Miller a turnaround specialist who is steering Delphi's restructuring process dispelled the "myth of America's "endangered" union manufacturing jobs, saying "We cannot continue to pay $65 an hour for someone to cut the grass and remain competitive."

Grass cutting? As defined by the current UAW contract negotiated with the "Big Five" (GM, Ford, Chrysler, and top parts makers Delphi and Visteon), an auto "production worker" is a job description that covers anything from mowing grass to cleaning the toilets.

In the real world, the grass and toilets could be outsourced to $8 an hour, no-benefit wage earners, but on Planet Big Five, people doing those jobs get the same wages as any auto line-worker: an average of $60,000 a year plus benefits that bring the company's total cost per worker to a staggering $65 an hour.

But at least the grass cutters actually do a bit of work for their pay, because the current UAW contract also guarantees that 12,000 autoworkers get full wage for doing nothing.

The Detroit News reports: "12,000 American autoworkers, instead of bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a "Jobs Bank.." These aren't jobs. And they certainly aren't being "lost" to China. "We just go in (to Ford's Michigan Truck Plant) and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," one UAW worker told the News. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

American taxpayers being asked to help are having our own financial worries, and If you held a national referendum on it, they aren't likely to vote to make "good" the long series of bad bets made by high-flying, low-talent auto execs with help from the union Prez they're so chummy with.

BUT - every auto job supports up to a dozen jobs in related supplier industries, so there's considerable risk if we don't in some sensible way help the automakers.

Pelosi and Reid and Obama's soon to be chief of staff this week that the Big Three needs help -- but first, they need to help themselves, and come to Congress with a plan that does not reward the captains and crew that steered the ship into the iceberg. And it should not reward stockholders for having joined the cruise.

As a retired auto worker of 6 years I have a lot at stake in this recent fiasco. I don't know what is right because I have seen, in my 36 years at Chrysler, a lot of waste, inefficiency and indifference in workers, the UAW and management. But....I honestly think they've tried to make things better recently and one thing they do that the foreign auto makers haven't had to face yet and that is they 'take care of their retirees'.

What I'm wondering is will the foreign makers be around to take care of their retirees when the time comes? I wouldn't bet on it.

One more observation. We wouldn't even be discussing these bailouts for anyone if the price of oil hadn't hit $140 a barrel. Who exactly is responsible for that?

Gary Haynes seems to have some answers. Maybe he can answer my questions? I have heard that Toyota sold two million cars in Japan last year? And isn't it true that American car companies are not allowed to build factories there by Japanese law? And isn't it also true that to export cars to Japan one has to go through about six months of government red tape and inspections per car? And isn't it true that the legacy costs to Japanese manufacturers in Japan are as great or greater than in the U. S. because they have what is called lifetime employment? Is it not true that Toyota and GM have parity in total worldwide production numbers? And because Toyota was able to sell two million cars in it's own closed market, would not that imply that GM sells two million more vehicles everywhere else? Does anyone know what percentage of vehicles sold on Japanese soil are foreign made? Do Japanese automobile manufacturers enjoy monopoly power in Japan? Would it not be true that by giving those companies monopoly power the Japanese government is subsidizing those companies at the expense of the Japanese consumer? And since Japan is subsidizing their auto industry does that not put American domestic brands at a competitive disadvantage (since one half or more of all Japanese branded cars sold in the U.S.A. are made in Japan)? Is it worth it to us to forever cede our manufacturing base to Japan (and others) for a brief downturn, easily bridged, with a relatively small amount of capital? Is it not true that the American domestic brands pay as much as 147 billion in taxes per year? Would it not be unwise to give up these taxes forever in the future, for lack of financing now?

I find it incredibly ironic that ABC chooses to air on "This Week" GM ads for one of the highest gas-guzzling pick-ups on the road today. I'm sure that famous country singer has no problem in filling up his tank, but unfortunately most of us can't afford this luxury lately. The "Big Three" will never be able to compete unless attitudes change; not only their own, but those of their many enablers as well. In the 100 years since the birth of the car and the airplane, we can now fly out of the solar system, but our automobiles are still using the same century-old engine. I'm sure the Big Three CEO's with their combined 50 million-dollar salaries don't want to ruin a good thing, and they know exactly how many intelligent consumers want to be just as cool as that country singer.

Any way you slice this, our economy is in very dark and disturbing times. We are standing on the edge of an abyss with one foot half way already down into it. It seems like as a nation we are running around like chickens with our heads cut off. Everyone knows we are in deep despair but no one seems to be able to agree on what to do about it. So much attention has been given to the mortgage crisis that little attention or credit for what the high cost of fuel this past year has played in our downward spiral. That one single factor caused families to break the budget at the pump alone. Consumer goods in every capacity from production to shipping passed the increased costs on to us. (and most products now cost more and come in smaller packages) Electric companies sought and were granted huge price increases. We cut back, quit going out to eat as much or at all, quit spending on frills and even necessities, that sadly resulted in even more jobs being lost. It has been a real catch-22 in the economy. Record jobs and homes are being lost still. Unemployment is climbing every day. While most of the public seem to be doing the happy dance around the pumps, and reporters are reporting the happy dance, little is being reported about OPEC's plans to keep cutting production and they will until they get prices back up where they want them to be. The average family is so far behind they will never get caught up. Jeff Wilson has an interesting book just out called The Manhattan Project of 2009. I heard him on a radio talk show interview and he blew me out of the water. I got his book on Amazon. I think we are going about this whole thing wrong. WE keep spending billions on bailouts and stimulus checks. Why not invest in creating improved grids, infrastructures, and creating millions of badly needed new green collar jobs? The last stimulus package cost us 168 BILLION and did NOTHING to stimulate our economy. That would have gone a long way toward starting up alternative energy projects and creating new jobs. www.themanhattanprojectof2009.com on a lighter note check out what they are doing in California.Check out this link to read the news. This is so exciting for those who realize the importance of seeing out country transfrom away from fossil fuels and to cleaner, cheaper electric cars. I read about this in Jeff Wilson's book The Manhattan Project of 2009. I am thrilled and surpriesed to see it taking place so soon. Link to news story below or simply type electric car infrastructure california or better place into search engine. http://www.freep.com/article/2...

Stephanopulos piece on “Big 3bailout" was heavily biased from the very start It seems that the main idea of this “high-quality” journalism was to invite a team of four professional “Big 3” bashers, and to make it “balanced and fair” two were from the right and two from the left! Predictably then the two conservative pundits hit on the union, and the two liberals on the management without much regard for facts or even common sense. None of them had any relevant automotive industry experience and at least one of them (David Brooks) acknowledged this. To have at least a bit more balanced discourse I propose that Mr. Stephanopolus brings someone who knows some facts in favor of the industry and their bridge loan request. Try Mr. Verg Bernero, the mayor of Lansing, who gave the hysterical Fox “newsmen” run for their money (see http://www.lansingcitypulse.com/lansing/article-2356-virg-bernero-on-fox-news.html).

Keep in mind that GM alone has $25 Billion of un-encumbered assets. In normal times, they would just borrow against them in situations like today's weak markets and would not even need to ask anyone for help. But, since Wall St.,Freddie and Fannie, and AIG stuck it to our Financial system, there is no one to loan them any money. And that is all they are asking for. A loan. A loan they will pay back with interest.A loan by the way, that they will get around 12/09/2008. And with the re-structuring they have been spending Billions on the last few years, they will emerge as a lean, efficient, profitable corporation making the best cars in the world, once again.

I agree with jjw555. As I said in my previous post, this segment on “Big 3 bailout" was heavily biased from the inception by the very one-sided and unfair choice of guests. It seems that the main idea of this poor excuse for journalism was to invite a team of four professional “Big 3” bashers, and to make it “balanced and fair” two were from the right and two from the left! For example, the conservative pundit George Will claims that the auto industry in Europe is successful because they don’t have this “terrible” UAW to contain with. This is absurd, since it is well known that the unions in Europe are much stronger with much more demanding worker benefits than here in the US. Then the pundit from the left presents the standard ultra-liberal conspiracy theory that the management is somehow always against the progress in fuel economy etc. As an example he mentions the GM EV1 electrical car which was removed from market. But this car cost GM $80K to produce and couldn’t sell it for $40K! Then George Will goes again with his objection to $7500 subsidies for GM Volt but no mention of $3000 plus subsidy for Prius (all made and designed in Japan) that our republican government was subsidizing all those years! It was a true comedy of errors and absurd if it weren’t tragic for so many and the country as a whole.

Good points Gary Haynes and marswind! They - Japanese and other imports – are pretty much using our country for chip labor with no health insurance etc to cover, while all the best jobs (with all the benefits) and key R&D and bulk of the profits are confined back to their home countries. I can’t blame them for this but I sure blame our politicians, lobbyist, media and all the others who are not exposing this for what it is. This is unpatriotic and it is ironic that President Bush and his GOP backers are on the forefront of this irrational lynch-mob mentality against helping our own American auto industry!

John, also keep in mind that the Japenese government also artificially keeps the value of the yen low. It is estimated that this amount to about a $4500 per car government subsidy. Also, by producing the powertrains in Japan for almost all of their "American" built cars, they pay very low corporate taxes when compared to real US companies. The Japenese companies are very much preditory vultures, preying on our consumers, companies, and easy US government regulations on imports. "Free Trade" really means foriegn companies are free to screw us!

Everyone seems to be talking about this issue. It appears people don't trust companies who can't manage on their own and don't support a bailout. Most have said they won't buy from them if a bailout is given which means they will go belly up anyway and taxpayers will never see their money. What ever happened to merging? Why is the free market place forcing socialism down our throats and then blame the leaders. If they merged and gave up 1/2 of their salaries for a year or two it would be a win win all around. People would be impressed and buy the product, and they would keep their jobs. Bailout seems to be failing companies asking for a last Since banks aren't lending the Government would benefit by allowing new business's to flourish and create jobs. With all the publicity USA got over Obama's election we could be selling American products like crazy, but banks continue to hurt the globe and enough is enough with bailouts from taxpayers. Taxpayers are hurting and are paying for others bailouts? Does that make any sense? One reason you see people sell stocks is they ar buying foreclosures at auctions with cash. There's still ways to do things to win in long run. If you can rent a property for more than a mortgage payment than that's a great deal because everyone needs a home. Some are investing in anything to do with stem cells as we face an aging society (almost 80 million americans in next several years will retire). Anyone with can can still do well and too bad banks lost faith in public when they were the ones with the arm and suprime loans. They started the mess, got bailout and blame the public by not allowing new mortgages. So glad we have brains in leadership now and hopefully he can prevent these stupid mistakes and reason I feel he is pick with new administration. Wasn't Citi bailout out by the Saudis just last year and now are in trouble. Have we learned enough about bailouts?

No bail out for the auto business big three is a smart move. Re-org under the rules of Chapter 11 is a better move for the Big Three. The Big Three should also hire some real management talent in lean culture and processes. As the old saying goes, "What does'nt kill you, will make you stronger.

One word sums it all up: irresponsibility. The chickens returned and we were all standing under their roost; guess what fell upon us? The "good old American way... pay with plastic" has just been revealed as a way to mortgage the future, and the future is here. Fannie Mae's "mission statement" was "to democratize homeownership". Another word for socialism. We're already far into that failed system, but by other names. Time to move back to the principles of times past. Keynesian economics have failed; you can't stimulate buying by issuing worthless credit. Time for our policy to concentrated on productivity. That's what's led to China's ascendency. Wake up, America!!!

I think most people were shocked to learn how much the average UAW worker makes. I also think it is important to note that while the big three with their high salaries and gold plated benefits are on the verge of bankruptcy, the ‘other’ car companies in this country are doing well. Nissan, Honda, and Toyota with numerous plants in U.S are all showing a profit. In fact Honda just opened another new plant. Hyundai based in Alabama is also doing very well. The workers at these plants are paid well (not on average $75.00 dollars an hour) but still very good. The biggest difference is that the big three all fall under the iron rule of the UAW while Nissan, Honda, Toyota and Hyundai do not. Workers are paid to work not just show up.
When the big three company presidents testified last week they really didn’t have a plan other than they needed to be bailed out with a major emphasis of keeping all the UAW pension plans going. The big three all need to come to the table with a major restructuring of all components of their companies before any talk of aid is even discussed; with very limited input by the UAW.
Unions in a very limited role can help provide certain benefits in organizations. Unions gone wild like the UAW foster greed, complicacy, and poor quality control while at the same time lining the pockets of union officials.