Political Punch

Hoosier Sue, Kevin Bard, Bishop*, seah, sunshinevoter, yawn, Texasdelegate, Katrina*, ConcientiousObjector (CO I am in with this plan, I am pretty well known in my community and I have spread the word), Oxycon and DavidH. I love to see your posts! Katrina and Bishop yours has an asterick because I always agree with you and I have read a lot of your posts.

One more thing. Get rid of the caucuses! They are clearly not representitive of the people who will vote in the general election and are easily manipulated by a handful of people. All caucuses do is confuse the process. Texas is the perfect test case, where Hillary won the primary but lost the caucuses.

Better yet, get rid of the Democratic party leadership. They clearly cannot run a national nominating process.

Here is the bottom line. Only Democrats could come up with a primary system that is inherently set up to take two great candidates and make them tear each other apart for nearly a year.

First, we have proportion allocation of delegates, which may be a good idea in theory. As we see, however, it is also great in creating stalemate. If, like the Republicans, we had a winner-take-all system of allocating delegates this thing would be over already, since Hillary took most of the big states. Another thing is the super delegates. They were created to give the party regulars more say in the nomination process. The problem is, removing delegates from the pool of elected delegates and making them unlected super delegates gives us exactly what we have now, stalemate.

On top of an inherently idiotic primary system, we have clueless DNC leaders. These people permitted Florida and Michigan to vote for delegates who would not be seated, and still have not found a way to resolve this issue. You cannot treat two major states this way.

Clearly, the Democratic party is not ready to lead this country.

Electoral and caucus votes should be obsolete. They detract from the will of the people. Both should be relics from the past, from the olden and early days of the republic when the founders thought the citizens weren't ready for the popular vote. Isn't it time that the simple majority vote decides without all this extraneous and confusing stuff of the caucus, delegate, electoral, and super delegate voting?

Has it occurred to anyone there is NO perfectly fair way to select a nominee?

I think this 'mixture of methods' does a pretty good job, considering the alternatives. And yes, I think caucuses work better in some areas than others, and primaries work better in some areas than others. One size does NOT fit all.

Caucuses are undemocratic. They are noisy, time consuming affairs that exclude large blocs of voters - the elderly, working people, parents of young children - gee, all those reliably democratic voters. To the voters in Primary states, the caucus process seems weird and elitist.

Oxycon -- "crooked caucus machine"? I don't understand. Hillary Clinton is one of the most capable politicians in the country, and the Clintons have been at the top of the Democratic party power structure for almost 20 years. How can she complain that Barack Obama was better organized than she was? She knew all the same rules for the contests as he did; she simply lost. It's sour grapes to complain, after the fact, about the system. The same goes for FL and MI; she only complained *after* losing.

Caleb, James Carville first suggested joint Clinton camp/Obama camp funding on national TV on one of the Sunday morning political programs. I know that I saw it first-hand in real time. The Obama supporter just hemmed and hawed around, though the moderator kept pressing for an answer. Obama doesn't want FL and MI to be heard because he's afraid to let the people speak. Since that joint offer, Carville has offered to have Clinton backers pay 100% for a MI re-vote.

Obama supporters who whine about how a re-vote wouldn't be fair have absolutely no problem with the fact that doing nothing (or somehow concluding that dividing delegates evenly is a solution) is even less fair.

This fact may be lost on Obamaites, but believe me, it isn't lost on Clinton supporters, FL and MI voters, and people who recognize racism and 20 years of acceptance for what it is and wish they had their votes back. Which hits the nail squarely on the head. I actually heard someone say that a re-vote isn't fair because this is a different time from the original voting date - meaning we're now in the Wright Era of Enlightenment.

Bill is right!! Obama does not win primaries, because moveon.org can not fix them as well as caucuses!

The caucuses do not represent the state, just look at TX.

If we cut to the chase, the Clinton camp would prefer to just rewrite the rules now to go back and count only the votes cast for Hillary. Well too bad, Slick, this kind of "game the rules" while the contest is still running gambit ain't gonna work any better for you now than it did for your protoge down in Florida in the election he tried to steal before discovering his higher calling to chill the globe. Adios piano legs. Wonder how long the people of NY will keep electing ya?

I was on Bill Clinton's conference call. There was no "fuzzy math" involved, as suggested in the report. It was clear to anyone with a brain that he was simply pointing out that the caucus process involves a small number of voters, who are not necessarily representative of their States. Therefore, Democrats should consider that fact in their decision-making process. It is the news media (including, or maybe "especially" ABC) with the fuzzy math. Have you noticed how the meida never mentions that the voters of Florida and Michigan(who had no choice of when their primary election was scheduled) have had their votes excluded from the delegate count, and how many delegates that removes from Hillary? When will the News Media return to reporting the news? It should be called the "Daily Speculation" or the "Daily Brainwashing" or both!

oxycon admit it Obama organized a better campaign then Clinton; if Bill wasn't a former president and Hillary's husband she would not have won as much as she has...she would not make a good president of US; do you think other countries aren't watching????

Other ideas?

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Yeah, eliminate undemocratic caucuses.
Hillary won Texas by a sizable margin, yet Obama got more delegates because of his crooked caucus machine.
When Democrats vote in democratic primaries, Hillary easily wins 99% of the time.
Obama has successfully gamed the system.
He won't be able to pull that off in the general election, though.

hoosiersue it isn't that simple, part of the problem was that voters who had voted republican because they had no say in the democratic primary will not be allowed to vote again which is illegal to prevent people from voting please did a little deeper before spewing "wisdom" (tongue in cheek)

Advise noted and appreciated.

I witnessed firsthand at my precinct station in Texas some very underhanded and aggressive ploys by Obama supporters during the caucusing. So I am one to advocate popular vote in making the final decision. What I witnessed at my precinct on the caucus night may have been a microcosm of what was happening nationwide. I will be one of the Clinton supporters to defect to McCain if it would turn into a close race between him and Obama, even thought I am at odds with most of McCain's idealogy. My McCain support would be in response to the disrespect shown to the caucus voting process by Obama suporters earlier this
month.

Harold Ickes of the Clinton campaign VOTED TO EXCLUDE FL and MI under DNC rules.

The Clinton campaign started talking about "disenfranchisment" ONLY when she started losing.

But this started with Ickes' vote, and no doubt, Hillary's approval.

No one to blame but themselves, so "SADDLE UP".

With pronouncements like these, it's amazing the media still take Bill seriously...he's become a joke. so, sad.

This doesn't even really deserve a comment. The Clintons are now beyond parody.

Please digress a moment. I would like veryone to look at a vote that was taken on the floor of the Senate oct. 31st, 2007 H.R.00401. (3963) I believe it was. Every one is talking about this caucus and that primary. Let's talk about the actual track record of these candidates and decide on them. This particular vote involved the expansion of healthcare for underpriveledged children. You guys know this one, this is the one that G. Bush vetoed and caused all kinds of outrage. How do you think HRC voted? You guessed it, she voted YEA. How do you think Obama voted? Well he didn't vote. He was to busy campaigning on Saturday Night Live's. Atleast HRC stopped her campaign to do her job. It appears that a poor child from the ghetto doesnt care to much for poor kids.

Bill is really getting old, I think this campaign is a punishment for him. He just want to wrap it off by hook or crook!

What is wrong with you people? The fact that an underhanded little rat like Carville is even so rock hard for Hillary is enough to turn me off.

And listen you keep saying that you think Obama doesn't want the people's voice to be heard but he just doesn't want a bought-ought primary. Clinton first offered to provide funding, and I don't know where some of you are getting your information, but Carville didn't propose a plan for joint funding to the Obama campaign. He just kept insulting the Obama campaign and turning people against him. Calling them "afraid" and "cheeky." What a jerk!

And furthermore, him being such a huge supporter of Hillary makes the whole entire thing suspicious. We need a neutral party to conduct this business, not the campaigns.

Sorry, of course that's CANNOT dis-enfranchise FL and MI.

dennis in Michigan, Hillary is calling for a complete re-vote in your state with both hers and Obama's name on the ballot. The re-vote is to be completely paid for by Hillary supporters to the tune of $15 million. Of course, they don't know that the state will go her way, but they do think that in a race this close the Democratic party can dis-enfranchise both MI and FL by telling them their votes don't count. Obama has blocked this effort at every turn. Why?

James Carville offered the same deal with FL if Obama backers would pick up half the tab. Again Obama has blocked those efforts. Why? Because he knows Hillary wins primaries, big states, swing states, on and on. But I forget, Obama is going to unite all of us into one big happy family. Indeed, in his dreams.

Well, as long as FL and MI are not counted, everything is well in Obama dreamland, right? I have no doubt that he'll win ... in his dream.

I guess people who attend caucuses don't really count as people?? More important point: what IS their problem with caucuses?? They *should* do better, in fact, since caucus-goers are more typically party regulars. It isn't like the fact they would have to compete in caucuses was a surprise. I'd think good politicians, like Obama apparently is, could adapt to different formats. What's the problem: lack of on-the-ground organization? Isn't organizing part of leadership? Is it that the more people get to know both candidates the more they like Obama? The FACT that they are doing badly so consistently in caucuses isn't just some accident of birth or anything.

Ex-President Clinton never ceases to amaze me as to how non-presidential he can act. Imagine to turn your nose up at every state that decides that caucuses are better for them. This is still a constitutional republic? right? The DNC approved their plans and the candidates signed on to them. Now to complain because the HRC campaign used poor judgement and ran a general election instead of running in a nomination process. They only have themselves to blame.

Smart strategy. Bill wants this to be OVER, so he's insulting the caucus states to drive their superdelegates to Obama

He obviously does NOT want to be the First Laddie, and surely he doesn't even want their tax returns released, ESPECIALLY if Hillary's not going to be the nominee.

Wisconsin was a caucus, MD and VA....they were caucus' too. Missouri...another caucus. Wow, Obama can only win the caucus. He should drop out of the race since he's behind in all numbers....
Just imagine, if the shoe was on the other foot...folks would be ready to lynch him by now if he didn't drop out to let queen hellary prepare for McCain. Shame on you Barack Obama!

Bill Clinton is right to play up Hillary's success in primary states. The general election is not a caucus, and it cannot be won with a handful of dedicated diciples dominating caucus sites. It is pretty clear that Obama has gamed the system to get his lead in delegates. His lead in delegates gained from caucuses says nothing about his ability to win in November. Hillary's ability to win the big battleground states shows much more strength going into the fall campaign.

Way More Caucuses

Why you still beating this dead horse?

In TX, Obama won caucus by 10%, but was defeated in popular vote by 4%.

In WA, Obama won caucus by a stunning 37%, but only won popular vote by 5%.

What does the number tell us? If we transfer all the caucuses to primaries based on TX and WA votes, then Obama was defeated by Clinton in popular vote with a rather large margin.

Conclusion? Obama has no chance winning general election unless his campaign change general election to caucus. Yes, you can????

Suggestion? Senator Obama, please quit right now before you hurt the democratic party too much.

jtp say "Other ideas?"

If it has not been suggested yet...

We should count only the states that begin with the word "New".

These states are vibrant and cutting edge. The other states represent Old America, you know, the Past. And we all favor "New" America far more.

So whoever won New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, should be the winner. Newfoundland may count too, but it is Canadian so I'm not sure what to do here (have to check with Wolfson first).

Why aren't we discussing things that mean something to this country,like jobs, economy, the war...?

The Rezko trial will resume on Monday. What else will come out. Its a pity that so many Obama supporters are so invested in their own power trip that they overlook Obama's problems that will be exploited in full during the General Election. We've heard all the Clinton stuff for so long that we've become immune to it.

Priceless.

If you look closely at the caucus numbers from Maine and Washington (state), you'll see that less than 1% of the registered voters caucused. How is this representational of the registered voters in those states? Why weren't the other 99% of voters caucusing? Because they were WORKING. Can you imagine telling your boss (or in Maine's case, the captain of the fishing boat) that you need the day off to spend caucusing for your candidate? What building in the world is large enough to hold tens of thousands of people at one time so they can caucus for their candidate. That's why primaries are a more direct representation of voters' choice. Of course, it would help if we counted ALL the votes that were cast - like those in Florida, where we had a record turnout (40% turnout in my county alone.)

Don't know about the math -- its certainly contrary to conventional wisdom -- but a big victory in PA will change the momentum. Question is, will it change it enough, esp if Obama wins big in North Carolina?

Hmmm....

And when he is beaten by MCcain don't blame Hillary you can't win only red states and the young people never stay long you'll be lucky to get them to the polls in November . Doing fifty states in one day is whole lot different then having big rallys and by the way Hillary draws thousnds but hers are never shown on the news.

The washington Media heads know that Obama can't win but they fear Hillary they have piled on since Iowa and I think Hillary should fight to the end she has every right they just want to push her out any one who think you can win the house without MI and FL. is crazy or if you think the rest of us who are not in your purple haze can't see why they never wanted them to count

This was supposed to be the week that the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. returned to the pulpit to preach for the first time since his anti-American sermons generated nationwide outrage and drew condemnation from his longtime parishioner, Barack Obama.

But, citing security concerns, Wright canceled his speaking engagements in Florida and Texas. A spokeswoman at his former church in Chicago said his schedule is pending.

I'm shocked, Shocked...

That someone named Talal Al-Khatib loves Obama and hates the Clinton's.

What a supprise.

Obama’s Former Pastor Getting $1.6M Home in Retirement

Guess who helped pay for it?

Obama’s Former Pastor Getting $1.6M Home in Retirement

About Michigan........

I don't know how Clinton supporters can just keep harping about counting Michigan.

I'm here in Michigan and must I remind you one more time that Obama wasn't even a choice on the ballot?

Republicans widely voted for Clinton to pad the count. Some Dems voted for Romney and Huck to tilt that vote as well. The MI Dem Primary was way out of whack and we in MI (no matter who you favor) so that it can only be split 50/50 and say we (and the DNC) better have learned a lesson.

But I don't want to hear any more crap about Clinton winning Michigan.

Folks,

This is what happens when your beloved Clintons try to change the rule in mid-stream. You have TWO horribly under qualified candidates who wish to bring socialism to our great country. If you think what they are going to bring is so great, please see Cuba, N. Korea, the Former Soviet Union, China... I personally want to be responsible for making a good living for my family, and keeping what I earn. So go ahead, blame the Bushes for what a crappy country we live in, say McCain is no better, but remember- IT"S STILL BETTER HERE THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD. And you folks are arguing on which idiot who is going to wreck it. What a shame...

The Clintons are really amazing! Not only have they thrown the kitchen sink at Obama, but they're also combing the kitchen sink to see what will stick to us, the voters, in their attempts to get Hillary the nomination. Clever and slick, but also unethical and a total turn-off. It's hard to find anything likeable or appealing about people who keep trying to change the rules to suit themselves. Unfortunately, voters who have something to gain by these tactics, as in Michigan and Florida, will go along with them, conveniently forgetting what was originally stated. Hillary is a scrapper, all right, but she fights dirty. Having someone like that representing us in the world community doesn't bode well for the U.S.

He won't win Ga. AL. Miss. KS Ar Ok Tenn TX SD ND PA OH MO MI HE JUST CAN'T DO IT.

Bill never had a problem with the caucus states when he won them. It's funny how the tides turn!

The fact is that the Clinton campaign was caught flat-footed and downright out-organized by the Obama campaign in the caucus states. But in true Clintonian fashion, that which is negative is wished or explained away. (Slick Willy also conveniently fails to note Obama's huge wins in states like Maryland, Virginia and Wisconsin while Hillary was taking February off.)

He will never win a the general you can't strong arm people and win thats why he likes caucases if you count Fl.and MI. he isn't leading and I think there are alot of people who have crossed over to help him win cause there is no way MCcain could beat Hillary so OBama will cost the democratic party the white house.

When they decided not to count Michigan and Florida, it became a fixed election.

Elections should be based on popular vote and all American Citizens votes be counted.

Obama would be in the dust, and should be.

The whole democratic primary should be illegal, Since they refuse to count all votes.

Primaries should be held on one day. Voting should be done by ballot. All votes should count.

I remember vividly....
hillary states that John McCain meets the threshold for CIC, and she claims that she too meets the threshold for CIC....
hillary states John McCain has experience, and she claims that she too has experience....
but Obama gave a speech and you'll have to ask him whether he meets the CIC threshold.

And NOW you tell people NOT to vote for McCain, after you propped him up as the only other qualified candidate other than yourself, hmmmmmm
The party will be united now because YOU say so?

hillary clinton has destroyed the democratic party with her slash and burn rovian politics.

Thanks hillary....WE will NOT forget!

HoosierSue-

You mean Texas where Rush Limbaugh and Clinton barely won the election fraud-tainted primary and Obama won the legitimately staged caucas? Ah, that would be the Texas that you're speaking of, the one that Obama won the overall delegate count and the state.

I'm with Bill Nelson - Let's change the whole flipping voting system. It's broken. My vote hasn't counted in years and it won't count this fall because no matter which of the two democrats win the nomination, my state is a hard-core conservative red state who's electoral votes (sad to say) won't go for either a woman or an African American. This blue voter is blue over the whole voting process - primaries and general. Through it out and start all over.

Kevin, when Hillary saves a baby from a collapsed building before media will say it, she will say it loud and loud again because she wants some return for her action, that is the kind of big ego people are afraid of, it is turning everybody away. She is in politics for herself and her family, and does not care about anybody. Remember the Bosnia sniper, that is the kind of fantasist she is, calculated and willing to say anything and everything to win the nomination. Too egocentric, too bad, too late, the writing is on the wall. God bless America and God bless Obama. OBAMA08.

Finally a post on this issue. The Clintonites make it seem for a long time now as if the caucus system was especially invented by Axelrod and Plouffe, in order to have Obama win the nomination.

They say the system is undemocratic etc. While caucuses may be flawed, they still have been the same system for both candidates. And from the very start Clinton knew she would have to compete in both primaries and caucuses.

But the Clinton campaign failed by, out of arrogance, not focusing on the many caucus states. So don't blame the Obama camp for running a much more sophisticated campaign. Clinton is paying now for her own failures, her own miserable strategy, her own arrogance.

Al Gore and other influential Democrat leaders must come out now to end this self-destruction that has been pursued by the Clintons.
If you think above racial lines, there is only one candidate who stands above the rest. Who else?! Barack Obama.
Yes We Can!

I'm just sayin' that if the Super Delegates want a Dem in the White House in '09 they need to look at how caucases have affected the numbers so far. They also need to look at which states each candidate is winning - big states, swing states, red states that are sure to go Republican in November, and so on. That's what Super Ds are for - to pick a winner and avoid choosing a candidate that will sink Dems across the board during the general election.

I mean, remember, "I AM HONORED...." and all that acting. Folks, Clintons represent the old political culture of ENTITLEMENTS. We have to change that. We have to come together. Clinton campaign definitely believes that personal attacks under Obama's belt are helping their cause. Anybody endorsing Obama falls under the axis of evil.

Is anyone else getting tired of all this Hillary bashing? She could save a baby from a buring building and the media would still not give her any credit. ABC is getting as bad as MSNBC and CBS with their obvious bias against Clinton and pro Obama.

Newsflash: State democratic parties organized caucuses to choose their nominee in the primaries. Those are the rules. You cannot change them now. If they didn't serve a purpose why did they create them? Now the Clintons want to disenfranchize caucus voters and defend the voters of Florida and Michigan who violated the rules and had their delegates suspended with the approval of the Clintons? Talk about who wants to disenfranchize voters.

Ha! What a way to start the morning :)

In a contest this close, the Democrats would do well to heed what Bill Clinton says. Obama wins in caucases which has helped his lead greatly. News flash: the general election is not a caucas. By the time the Republicans and 527s get done with Obama, the Dems are going to be at a disadvantage when people step into a private booth to vote. If you doubt this, you need only look to Texas, where Hillary won the primary; Obama won the caucas.