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The Holes in Clinton's "Popular Vote" Argument

May 20, 2008 9:58 AM

It's one of Sen. Hillary Clinton's last arguments -- she's ahead in the popular vote, she should be the nominee, even though she has won fewer delegates.

"Right now more people have voted for me than have voted for my opponent,” Clinton told Kentuckians recently. “More people have voted for me than for anybody ever running for president before."

One problem with these claims -- they don't appear to be true.

The problem is not Clinton mendacity. The problem is that popular vote tallies are woefully wrong.

The Iowa Democratic Party reported that 236,000 voters turned out for the Iowa caucuses on January 3. So why does the Associated Press tally only record 1,677 votes?

ABC News' Polling Director Gary Langer takes a look at this issue, and with his team attempts a good-faith effort to assess what the real popular vote numbers likely were.

Read it HERE.

The bottom line: Sen. Barack Obama likely won the popular vote as well -- even with those disputed contests in Michigan and Florida counting.

Anyone concerned with what the real popular vote tallies were -- and not just bragging rights or talking points -- should check out Langer's analysis.

- jpt

May 20, 2008 | Permalink | User Comments (95)

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"The problem is not Clinton mendacity."

So like an MSM journalist to deny the obvious corruption of his fellow elitists. Even without considering misreporting of the numbers, Clinton and her campaign are well aware that she's only "ahead in the popular vote" if you exclude several caucus states and include both FL and MI with the assumption that 0 citizens of MI favored Obama. Oh yeah, that's really enfranchising them. This blatant hypocrisy of Clinton's is very well known thoughout the informed segment of society, which doesn't include most MSM journalists, nor most of the ignorant yahoos that post in these comment sections.

Posted by: truth machine | May 25, 2008 1:00:24 AM

Obama is not going to be "the first black president"! He is only 1/8 black!! 1/2 White!! The rest Arabic!! This is in his book in his own words!!
"The first black president" is a shameless lie to win votes. His white grandparents are who raised him and sent him to Harvard (paid). He could not legally claim a minority status unless it was available for Arab-american. Which it is not available.
Because his wife is black and he is dark skinned people have jumped all over this black deal. Have any of you seen arab people coloring, eyes, nose, ears, etc? Now if he wants to consider himself black to go into history books, I think the laws would have to be the same for him as say a native american. It requires 43% dna to claim it legally.
Same old politics, same old supporter, same old game. Do what it takes to get votes.

Posted by: drjune | May 21, 2008 4:34:20 PM

The caucuses were outright frauds! We had people who had not voted in the primary, a pre-req to caucus, trying to caucus. Some workers said, "NO" others were letting anyone and everyone caucus. We should not end up up more caucusing than votes cast! But, that was the case. The reason they have not delt with Michigan and Florida is to falsely allow voters to think that Obama is ahead. People by nature want to be on the winning team. The press is a good example of this. Whatever they hear they spin with their own personal views and then spin it to us. Hillary has won 1/2 the country's votes as has Obama. This will have to go to convention to be decided. It is arrogant for Obama to start acting like he is the nominee, but what else is new for this elitest?

Posted by: drjune | May 21, 2008 4:22:10 PM

Obama will be getting sworn in and Hillary will still be giving speeches claiming that it's not over. Her final push will be her insistance that the population of China be seated at the convention.

Posted by: Tom | May 21, 2008 11:31:55 AM

1) Kudos to "Phil" for the reverse math: More people are voting. Period. It's a sign of the times.

2) "Fed up": I'm with you. I can't believe HC can be embraced a "the feminist's" candidate. While she has accomplished great things, she has also bolstered the image of the "loyal wife" who stands by her man because, well, that's what a Wife does. I agree with you: I also want a female president some day -- but I want one who gets there on her own, not because she has to piggy-back on a husband's presidency!

3) It seems okay to point out that Obama's overwhelming support from Af-Am may be dependent upon race, but PC standards dictate that we can only dance around the complementary idea that the bulk of HC's support in states like WV and KY is less a vote for HC and more a vote against the "scary black man."

4) I am so interested in the eduction demographics for this primary; I believe the fact that educated people tend to vote for Obama to be very telling. While I'm not saying they're "bitter," it's a fact that those with smaller visions of the world (by definition, "uneducated") are more easily blinded by empty promises and chameleon-like charades. People with more education tend to look at the broader picture and seek information before making decisions -- not because they are "smarter," or "better" -- because this is the nature of what it means to be educated, which continues as a life-long process (and doesn't switch off at the completion of a degree).

I have voted as an Independent for many years because, although my ideals have often been allied with the Democratic Party, I have not been able to stomach the blatant "junkfood" pandering to the masses. Obama represents my first encounter with a candidate who is willing to bypass this apparently effective strategy. Every time he risks arguing against a gas tax "holiday," or reminds us that America should change its gluttonous ways, I am reassured that, despite his role as a politician, he is a man of conviction, judgement and, overall (and in starkest contrast), integrity.


Posted by: anomoly | May 21, 2008 9:21:58 AM

Senator Obama and his far left politics have hurt the Democratic Party. Many are registering as independents and will vote for Senator McCain. Senator Obama got his start in politics with the help of corrupt people and has not changed. He will say and do anything to get his socialist and terrorist supporters a voice in our government. Wake up America or we are doomed.

Posted by: NO NO O DAMA | May 21, 2008 12:21:40 AM

If the main stream media could be charged with conspiracy, the charges would surely stick. Major outlets have praised and propped up Senator Obama and refused tell the truth about his corrupt politics. He is as guilty as Tony Rezko who is in jail awaiting the verdict of 23 charges. The FBI mole who worked this case for two years stated that when Rezko called, Obama came running. They were bedfellows in this whole corruption case.

Posted by: Mary | May 21, 2008 12:08:26 AM

After reading all the facts of the Obama/Rezko connection, I believe Senator Obama should be in jail with Rezko, not on the ballot.
REZKO WATCH----Curtain Time for Obama, Part 1 thr 5. Read it. Senator Obama is up to his neck in corruption.

Posted by: Mary | May 20, 2008 11:37:10 PM

The holes of democracy in America:

Comparison of Texas primary and caucas results

Texa Primary
Candidate Votes Vote % P.Deleg
Clinton 1,459,814 51% 65
Obama 1,358,785 47% 61
4 points win to Clinton
A win of 4 pledged delegates for Clinton

Texa Caucus
Candidate Votes Vote % P.Deleg
Obama 23,918 56% 38
Clinton 18,620 44% 29
12 points loss to Clinton
A loss of 11 pledged delegates for Clinton

Comparison of Washington Caucus and Primary:

Washington Caucus
Candidate Votes Vote % P.Deleg
Obama 21,629 68% 59
Clinton 9,992 31% 31
37 points win of Obama

Washington Primary
Candidate Votes Vote % P.Deleg
Obama 339,166 51%
Clinton 303,151 46%
6 points win of Obama

Comparison of Alaska and Virginia
Alaska
Candidate Votes Vote % P.Deleg
Obama 6,674 75% 9
Clinton 2,194 25% 4
A win of 4480 votes
A win of 5 pledged delegates

West Virginia
Candidate Votes Vote % P.Deleg
Clinton 239,298 67% 20
Obama 91,747 26% 8
A win of 147551 votes
A win of 12 pledged delegates

America is just like the animal farm in George Orwell.
All votes are equal: just some votes are more equal than the others.

Posted by: John_Lai | May 20, 2008 9:03:30 PM

it's posted everywhere:
Needed to Win: 2,026 - if you don't count MI and FL and a lot more (2209?) if you do count them.

the falacy the media put in your (and others) mind is that you can add the superdelegates to the pledged delegates.
that 'math' they've been screeming about is FRAUD. not math but FRAUD. they are doing that in order to supress the vote and interfere in the democratic process.
you cannot add superdelegates to pledged delegates for the simple reason that the supers are not allowed to pledge and are not allowed to vote until the convention.
actually, some of the superdeleagetes from hillary's camp have changed their position and moved to obama's camp.. they can keep doing that until they actually VOTE.
in fact, even the pledged delegates are still fighting it out as we speak here.. there are meetings all over the country. so, the process is pretty simple: you get to the total necessary to win or you don't.
if you don't get to the winning number, the process changes dramatically:
both candidates make their case to the delegates at the convention.
that is no different than campaigning in any other state - you can call this state - the delegate state.
and then ALL delegates are up for grabs and the best wins.
see how they are trying to force a woman out?
by committing FRAUD on the american people.

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 6:48:19 PM

If the rules are the rules, she can't have enough votes, neither does he, except that he has more. They just don't want this to go the convention, for they fear the superdelegates may have a different argument, because the point for her is to go all the way through, and with all the votes in the next contests, so she can prove or be proved what ever the ultimate outcome is. This seems right.
Except that BO and his supporters don't want to take any chance!

Posted by: jane | May 20, 2008 6:07:37 PM

Joe,

What is the winning number in your mind?

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 5:11:48 PM

ooh.. so now you know how clinton made the money for the country huh..
i see why you believe in obama's change..it sounds like you think you can make money for the country too :))

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 4:50:10 PM

duuuuuurrrrrr....

Clinton was just President when everyone purchased a computer. The business' brang it to the table and fed the country, Clinton turned around and freed everyone to go elsewhere.

Posted by: yoyo's | May 20, 2008 4:47:03 PM

i just responded to your question about the numbers.
now you are opening another one, about the process:
yes, FL and MI will go through the democratic process - that's why the rules committee will meet at the end of the month.
and if they don't resolve that, FL and MI will fight it at the convention as well.
but you are missing my point altogether:
with or without FL and MI, obama cannot reach the winning number.
hence, the convention.

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 4:43:57 PM

Joe,
I looked at the numbers as you suggested.
You convenienlty looked at the column that counts Florida and Michigan. So let me see if understand correctly. You have gone on and on about the process and how we have to follow the rules of the process, i.e. continuing the voting and allowing the primary to go to the end. Yet, you are more than happy to throw the very rules of the primary you defend out the window if it gives Clinton the lead. Interesting concept you have there.

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 4:37:10 PM

Ok Joe,

Does that mean that Hillary is also pulling a fraud with her method of counting the popular vote and manipulating the numbers?

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 4:24:43 PM

agree to disagree on what?
i've been telling you: it doesn't matter what you and i want or think.
there is a DEMOCRATIC PROCESS in place and both obama and hillary will HAVE TO follow it.

there is no other way at this point but for them to make their case in front of everyone on the convention floor.

all this nonsense with obama being ahead.. all that is meant to accomplish is to scare people away, to stop them from voting.
i hope that you agree with me that the practice is simply FRAUD.

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 4:18:50 PM

Yo yo,
Who's policies are they? I understand and agree with you that Congress and the local level of government are important. I just don't agree that the President has no impact. In the case of Iraq, the President proposed going to war and Congress agreed. Both were important in that decision.

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 4:17:27 PM

Below Average Joe,

We will just have to agree to disagree. I am not even sure what you were trying to say in that last post.

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 4:13:58 PM

btw, whether you accept that obama cannot reach the winning number or not is irrelevant.
you just are wasting time!
this process ends at the convention.
that is the way the democrats and the DNC designed it and that is the right and fair course for both parties.
no matter how much people inflate the obama numbers - they still fall short.
pitty huh?
:))

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 3:47:01 PM

Unfortunetly, her fuzzy math on the popular vote is much too much like her fuzzy memories of Bosnia.

Hillary has a bad habit of bending the facts to suit her motives.

If anyone else but Hillary were in her position right now, the pol and the media would have drummed her out of the race by now, but b/c she is Hillary, they are handling her with kid gloves and allowing her to remain.

The sad thing is that there is a tipping point beyond which her remaining in the race goes from looking like a stalwart warrior, to a sad figure who fails to grasp the reality of her situation..."Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up..."

Posted by: Suzanne | May 20, 2008 3:35:27 PM

Joe,
Average Joe,
I never said that the voting should not continue. I just don't except the math, there is no way she can win.
As far as racism, to paraphrase, if the hood fits........

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 3:28:38 PM

yeah..sure.. everything that you don't like just call it 'racist' and you can get away with it..sounds like a baby who can't get his toy and start crying..

if you are so fair minded why do you have a problem with letting democracy run its course?

why do you not like to let people VOTE?

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 3:19:24 PM

Yo yo, do you mean being blinded by all of the things going on in the world, many of which are direct results of the current President's policies? This would be a President that is of no consequence according to your reasoning.

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 3:19:12 PM

You all worry to much! The president can't do crap anyhow without the backing of congress, so just quit the bickering. It doesn't matter who's president. What matters is that the nation is being blinded by this election and forgot what is really going on in the world. Any pres will do.....what we have to do is press the congress and senate and local offices to do the right thing. President.....c'mon peeps

Posted by: yoyo's | May 20, 2008 2:59:24 PM

"how stupid can you be? hard to count huh?" Well put, if you are asking yourself a question.

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 2:43:17 PM

Notme:

educate yourself, go to his website, all the information is there, research him for yourself. Then and only then can you reach an informed opinion. If you like what you see, cool. If not, don't vote for him. It's America. Just equip yourself with the ideals and the policies of both Obama and McCain before you take sides.

Posted by: Really? | May 20, 2008 1:45:29 PM

Average Joe. You sound a little confused so I'm going to help you and all of the other people who don't seem to get it. The remaining states that still have to vote don't hold enough delegates to help Senator Clinton. Think of it this way - Let's say 50 is the magic number. If he has 40 and she has 10 and the remaining states will only total 3 more delegates. Now regardless of who wins those 3 delegates after those last states vote, neither will have reached 50. Now, let's give Clinton the 3. She still looses by 7 points. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? This is why some are saying she should get out. It's not about sexism. It's about incompetency. An ill run campagin and the "all things to all people" crap that makes me dislike her and I'm a woman. She does not speak for me. Further, I think she is making women look irrational and crazy. Is this how we accept bad new? Disbelief? That's not leadership!

Posted by: roxanne | May 20, 2008 1:38:23 PM

Average Joe. You sound a little confused so I'm going to help you and all of the other people who don't seem to get it. The remaining states that still have to vote don't hold enough delegates to help Senator Clinton. Think of it this way - Let's say 50 is the magic number. If he has 40 and she has 10 and the remaining states will only total 3 more delegates. Now regardless of who wins those 3 delegates after those last states vote, neither will have reached 50. Now, let's give Clinton the 3. She still looses by 7 points. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? This is why some are saying she should get out. It's not about sexism. It's about incompetency. An ill run campagin and the "all things to all people" crap that makes me dislike her and I'm a woman. She does not speak for me. Further, I think she is making women look irrational and crazy. Is this how we accept bad new? Disbelief? That's not leadership!

Posted by: roxanne | May 20, 2008 1:38:21 PM

Looks like the n.e.g.r.o. is going to win this election. Sure hope he knows what he's doing. Don't know though since he has really given us any 'plans'. All we get are talking points. He got an economy that has tanked and a war that seems to drag on and on.

Posted by: Notme | May 20, 2008 1:36:22 PM

BIG SURPRISE!

Another lie from the Clinton's on the math...

How can we have a president that can't count correctly, can manage her campaign money, lies about everything, is broke and basically is delusional???

Doesn't sound like who I want for my next president! How can somebody fix the economy that can't count??

If Hillary did find some way to get into power, later she would probably lie and "say" the economy was great, until we got the video that is!!!

Posted by: Davis | May 20, 2008 1:26:36 PM

Please don't call HRC a girl or call her names in general. She may not be my candidate, but she deserves respect.

Posted by: Really? | May 20, 2008 1:25:34 PM

Mary - The press has done their jobs. They reported the FACT that Obama was extensively investigated, and the authorities could find absolutely no wrong doing on his part. That is why he is not on trial.

This is old news, Mary. Also, you are quoting a blog and not a reputable news organization to bolster your argument. Please, anyone that throw out an accusation. Anyone.

Posted by: Texas Voter | May 20, 2008 1:25:05 PM

To Anne and Average Joe;

What are you talking about? Any facts to back up your statements?

Are y'all from W. Virginia?

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 1:21:34 PM

I wonder how many of you newly minted McCain supporters will volunteer to be the first to kiss your son or grandson goodbye as he heads off to Iraq, because McCain has instituted the draft to run his war(s). He has said it needs to be "revisited" since recruitment for the military is at an all time low. How many of you want to wait at the airport for his flag draped coffin because you voted for a war you are so adamantly against now?

Show of hands...anyone?

Posted by: Really? | May 20, 2008 1:19:21 PM

Senator Obama is as guilty as Rezko in defrauding the taxpayers. Read the 5 part very detailed report "Curtain time For Obama" on REZKO WATCH on the net. He made it possible through legislation for Rezko to defraud and Obma received thousands from the same crooked people.
Do you want this man as President? I believe he belongs in jail with Rezko and others who have already pleaded guilty. The main stream media has not been honest with the American public by not reporting the trial and the known facts from the investigation.

Posted by: Mary | May 20, 2008 1:16:56 PM

Preach it, Nat Turner. And god forbid Hillary made it to the white house. She'd bring all this dysfunction to the white house.

Posted by: Brooke | May 20, 2008 1:16:26 PM

To hopesprings52;
Your comment "This issue can be spun to death" is dead on, and your post prove your point! Spin is also trying to make something asinine sound like it has merit, example,"That all seems pretty clear cut, doesn't it?"
Your arguments are baseless as is your logic.
You also wrote; "The factor that wins the general election is only one:
the electoral college total." So what magic eight ball is telling you how the GE will turn out? How does anyone know what states might buck the trends of the past? It is all up in the air this year, so again, you are the one spinning.

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 1:14:38 PM

Good riddance, Clintons.

Posted by: Lani Gunier | May 20, 2008 1:11:07 PM

Nat Turner - That is as good a post mortem as I've read in regards to the Clinton campaign.

Even the Washington Generals look more organized and have a better chance of winning.

Posted by: Texas Voter | May 20, 2008 1:10:21 PM

My apologies for the double post.

Posted by: Texas Voter | May 20, 2008 1:06:33 PM

Kris wrote:

So if Clinton is wrong why has ABC had her winning the popular vote, if you include MI and FL, for days now.

----------------------

Remember when the networks declared Al Gore president?

Posted by: Megan | May 20, 2008 1:03:15 PM

hopesprings52 - Your facts are woefully wrong

FACT - Hillary Clinton signed a document last year where she agreed that MI and FL would not count

FACT - Terry McAuliffe himself warned the FL and MI delegations not to move up the primaries, or their delegates would be stripped

FACT - Obama will lock up the majority of pledged delegates tonight

FACT - A very large majority of Super Delegates have stated time and time and time and time again they would not take the nomination away from the candidate with the pledged delegate lead. That is why you are seeing so many defections as well as the flood of Super Delegates moving very briskly toward Obama

This race was effectively over after Texas/Ohio. After tonight, I have a very strong feeling the SDs will make it official right after June 3rd. Also, I believe May 31st, the Rules and Bylaws Committee will come up with a compromise to seat the outlaw committees of FL and MI, and that will put THAT issue to rest.

This race has been over for over a month. It is just becoming official starting today.

Posted by: Texas Voter | May 20, 2008 1:02:07 PM

I cant help but love Hillary's strength and determination. She is Wonder Woman!

Posted by: andrea | May 20, 2008 1:01:17 PM

Play the race card-backfired. So what is the next trick? Misogyny! Please!! More like Clintonogy. The chickens came home to roost thats all. All the democratic Clinton haters found a new horse to ride. The Clintons never made many democratic friends just allies. Now those allies that have been beaten down, stomped on and spit at by the Clinton faithful now get to push the eject button on her and her husband finally and they get the last laugh. Her campaign run badly... maybe so but what SHE did not do is heal all the pervasive bad taste her and her husband left in everybody's mouth. That was her true downfall in this election. She is not going to get elected becuse she is a woman she is not going to get elected because she is a Clinton.

Posted by: porterwayne757 | May 20, 2008 12:53:56 PM

dl,

Thanks, I hope you're right. Maybe the problem is taking the ranting you sometimes see in comments sections as dispositive.

Having said that, how do we explain Gerry Ferraro?

Posted by: Harley | May 20, 2008 12:51:11 PM

To those that keep sayting that if the Democrats used Republican method of selecting a candidate, Hillary would be ahead, or if Florida and Michigan counted, and on and on....you remind me of an old saying, "If wishes were horses, we would all ride." The fact is that the Democratic party, not Obama, not Clinton, made the rules, regarding both Florida/Michigan and the way the delegates are divided. Neither candidate made the rules and both agreed to them going into the race.

Posted by: Donnie Poston | May 20, 2008 12:49:01 PM

Hillary's whole act is getting so tired and dull. Its over and its over because she put together a disfunctional campaign with no clear message. That and the fact that a very large group of people think she is a liar. An image she reinforced regularly.

Posted by: DMR | May 20, 2008 12:41:15 PM

So if Clinton is wrong why has ABC had her winning the popular vote, if you include MI and FL, for days now.

Posted by: Kris | May 20, 2008 12:19:18 PM

Anyone who thinks that any decent American ain't gonna vote Democratic in the fall is trying to sell you something. The GOP has broken the USA; good people will not vote for them in November. And the ones that will, well they were never really your friend anyway. Friends of America don't vote for the America destroying party: the republican party.

Posted by: Northern Observer | May 20, 2008 12:18:32 PM

You're losing the track, dl. The party isn't going to come together this time over those issues. The Republicans are too smart to run the campaign you are describing. McCain will pull to the center. His coalitions will hold. Obama can't do that and his will spinter. The delegates will do what they want to, but the electoral math shows Hillary has the best shot at beating McCain. Obama can only beat him with her on the ticket but even that isn't sure.

Even if she calls for unity, too many Democrats are voting against him on his own demerits. His demerits won't change. Neither will the electoral math.

Posted by: len | May 20, 2008 12:16:48 PM

What can you expect from the same woman who claimed she was hit by sniper fire in Bosnia? And this has become more than ridiculous the way the media is treating her like a primadonna. Why is everyone courting her delusions, not telling her she is not ahead in the popular vote? Why doesn't someone confront her with the fact that she signed to follow the rules of Michigan and Florida before to decided not to acknowledge her pledge. Just why does the DNC have to meet again and again and now on May 31 to 'figure something out' just because Hillary is bellyaching when everyone knew the rules and everyone agreed to obey the rules?

Posted by: RuthieM | May 20, 2008 12:10:44 PM

Melissa

you need to get out. I have seen hundreds of Hillary supporters...they are normal citizens for the most part...not Hillary fanatics.

They want what is best for the country.

That is not me that is under some weird self spin...it is an idea caused by a handful comparatively of Hillary supporters spurned on by her campaign.

Most Hillary supporters are smarter, kinder and more thoughtful than that about how they vote.

I am sorry if it doesn't help someone's anger to think they might not have the big destructive revolt that some on here want but that is what i have seen over the past few weeks...if you get out of the house and go to normal dem events... there is angry people but not people who would throw everything they ever fought for under the bus for Hillary Clinton's nomination.

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 12:10:32 PM

dl, you are under a false idea that Hillary supporters are going to Obama.
This just isn't true

Posted by: Melissa | May 20, 2008 12:06:08 PM

Hillary always speaks about how “tough” she is, of being a “fighter,” when what we need is a statesman. Bush was the “fighter,” the kind who sends others to fight and die because of his lack of judgment.“ A fighter like that we don’t need. We need someone who will negotiate, compromise when necessary. Hillary is not the person with the judgment necessary to take the office of commander in chief - "from day one," or from any other day.

OBAMA 2008

Posted by: rhbate | May 20, 2008 12:05:32 PM

average joe

we are just putting the soldiers, women, middle class, children's healthcare, reducing the burden on the rest of the countryby having huge tax cuts for the wealthy, etc... ahead of ahead of any single candidate.

the voters can be heard but that will not change the outcome.

no matter what you want to argue...the facts are on the table... supers as a majority have said how they are going to vote (by the will of the pledged delegates) and that will finish tonight ...but even if it didn't there is absolutekly no way for him not toget the majority of pledged delegates. Period.

spin as you will

but that is the facts.

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 12:05:28 PM

The list of people that have publically announced that Hillary has a better chance of winning in November has been astounding yet they cast their votes for Obama. The superdelegates should decide not the voters----well, I hate to tell you a fact, it is the "voters" that will decide this Election in November not the Democrats superdelegates. Obama is a fraud and more is exposed each and every day. His slogan has changed to "No We Can''t". America he says has to be more like Africa and the Middle East...we cannot drive our SUV''s (most Americans do not have SUV''s), eat as much as we have, not heat or cool our homes to desired temperatures...America has to change and join the rest of the World in poverty and shortcomings. He is a sick man. America is great and we should fix whatever problems we have "roll up our sleeves" and work together to achieve more greatness and spread this throughout the world rather than the message we have to decline. Superdelegates if you give your votes to Obama you will be destroying the very foundation of "freedom" in America.

Posted by: Anne | May 20, 2008 12:00:43 PM

geevil and average joe

I guess McCain isn't the republican nominee either so why are they all getting behind McCain?

the deal is done tonight.

and most Hillary suporters because they are smart Americans who care about our soldiers, women's rights, the economy, our standing in the world, healthcare...etc...

are moving already to back Obama... the blather that you see from a small handful of people on the internet does not represent most Hillary supporters...

they tend to be great Americans that put the causes far ahead of any individuals "right" to the presidency.

They don't vote out of spite... they vote out of hope.

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 11:58:17 AM

Or we just believe ABC:

"Clinton 16,691,639
Obama 16,648,060"

So Jake, this means you can't agree among yourselves?

Posted by: len | May 20, 2008 11:56:15 AM

the media is owned by big corporations!
they will turn for mccain the minute there is a nominnee in the democratic party.
that's why they are trying to force hillary out - they need time to turn their guns on the democrats!
can't you see the FREE media that mccain is getting and has been getting.
obama is toast, make no mistake about it.
look at the gl delegate map.

STOP THE CRAP - LET PEOPLE EXERCISE THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO
VOTE!

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 11:50:59 AM

"The problem is not Clinton mendacity."

While it may not be mendacious, it is certainly deceitful. To tout that statistic is smoke and mirrors by anyone's definition.

Being that part of her base is "less educated" whites, maybe she underestimates them and feels she can sell this tripe. But I believe that anyone with out the blinders of unabashed support would be able to see this pitch for what it is, regardless of education level. It is nothing more than a snake oil slaesman pitch.

Posted by: Ignored | May 20, 2008 11:50:42 AM

Harley
trust me

I have been to three different dem events this past 2 weeks... I'd say 80% of them were Hillary supporters... (mostly older women at these things) ...maybe 3 of them were ranting about voting for McCain.

The rest said "of course we will not vote for McCain"

the people blowing anger on here are vastly in the minoruity...

most of the Clinton supporters are already coming around to saying we need our country back...we needd our soldiers not to be used in vain...we need someone to do something about the economy, healthcare housing...and we will NOT give the republicans an opportunity to argue in congress that the people had spoken and they support a anti-choice selection for the supreme court.

these are people (the clinton supporters) that have fought far too long and hard to have the republicans damage us anymore....

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 11:46:29 AM

I believe the media is pissed because they are losing control over the people every lie they have put forth hasn't come to pass there is no Democratic nominee until the delegates vote at the convention.

Posted by: Bishop | May 20, 2008 11:45:58 AM

This will be settled before the convention. And it will be settled after the last primary.

Posted by: lisa | May 20, 2008 11:43:20 AM

It's bad enuf that Senator Clinton has made this falsehood a part of her stump speech, but even worse? Every time she utters this statement she makes it harder to unite the party when the primaries are over. Becuz, by definition, she is suggesting that the nomination is rightfully hers, and that it has been taken from her, not won by the opposing candidate.

It's a lie, sure. But it's worse than that. It's an excuse for her more zealous supporters to feel like they've been cheated -- and, as we've seen here and on other boards, the excuse they need to insist they will never vote for their party's nominee.

Posted by: Harley | May 20, 2008 11:41:33 AM

average joe

if Obama didn't win the delegate math tonight he would win it in the next primary...

most of the left suopers have said they want the delegate math to choose...

we have a winner.

and all you do is waste our time saying we don't. time that should be showing all the stupidity coming out of the continuation party.

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 11:39:09 AM

The most logical way to settle Florida and Michigan was to have revotes. Let both candidates campaign and have a straight up vote. That would have happened except for the obstruction of Obama and his lawyers. Obama had a vested political interest in keeping the Dems of Florida and Michigan disenfranchised. That all seems pretty clear cut, doesn't it?

Posted by: hopesprings52 | May 20, 2008 11:30:30 AM

and Andrea

even with the Clinton brand machine as the 15 year king and queen of the party...

Obama is going to close the deal tonight.

I'm pretty positive.

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 11:23:31 AM

HE STILL CANT CLOSE THE DEAL.AND HILLARY'S GONNA WIN AGAIN TONIGHT.LOL

Posted by: andrea | May 20, 2008 11:17:15 AM

The founding fathers of our country revolted when the British refused to negotiate.

Why would McCain run on a campaign of refusing to negotiate with countries until they meet all your demands? Senator McCain, that's not negotiation, that's a dictatorship.

Posted by: Debbie | May 20, 2008 11:16:54 AM

Langer's take is just another spin on HOW to count the votes. It seems that everyone with a view of their own can find a way to prove their point. How about we look at it this way. No matter who is really ahead by a few thousand voters, the plain and simple fact is that Hillary is getting just as many votes as Obama. Even with the nits all picked, she shows just as popular as he does.

Posted by: JR | May 20, 2008 11:15:05 AM

WE WE WE
Hillary has not ran as the first female presidental candidate. She is running as the wife of an ex-president. Never has it been what I will do always what WE will do.
I want to vote for a female someday but it has to be one that is her own woman, not her husbans's puppet.

Posted by: fed up | May 20, 2008 11:10:33 AM

averagejoe and hopesprings

I think they will be talking a lot about that tonight after Obama receives the most pledged delegates and the majority and probably is going to announce (just a guess) that he has enough supers to put him over the top...

only reason I can see him being back in Iowa

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 11:01:03 AM

Why is a strong contender receiving so much pressure to get out even though the leader can't put it away? Hillary has as much right to compete as Obama, so why the hysteria to drive her out?

----
because the big media know that obama will be eaten alive by mccain.
they have been trying to push hillary out of this race for months now.
why else would you have a headline like this one?
dishonest! cowardly!
trying to push a woman out of her right!

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 10:59:42 AM

hopesprings 52

the last attempt tofairly bring in Michigan and Florida was blocked by (drum roll) the clinton campaign because they want it to only work for them... and if that means going againt everything they said and created (because they (her team)are the ones that created this system of not counting votes...or by half)...when it means they are not going to live up to promises they made donors...

they only fight for voters when it helps them...never if it hurts them.

Posted by: dl | May 20, 2008 10:58:05 AM

this is the time when PEOPLE vote. that ends on June 3rd.
the time for delegates to vote is at the Convention.
how about the BIG HOLES in the argument that 'obama has more delegates than hillary'? how big of a hota air baloon is that? just like the obama talk.
talk talk talk
when are you guys going to TELL THE TRUTH??

Posted by: Average Joe | May 20, 2008 10:54:49 AM

Hillary lost fair and square accept it! When she was ahead all of last year Hillary supporters did not complain and claim sexism. FL and MI DO NOT COUNT. Get over this and heal the party! This seems to be something Hillary needs to consider a bit more instead of taking this arrogant stance!

Posted by: Erik | May 20, 2008 10:53:08 AM

how about the BUG HUGE holes in the delegates argument??
NOT ONE SINGLE DELEGATE HAS CASTED ONE SINGLE VOTE YET!

just stop the crap and stop pushing obama down people's guts