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WWII Vet Fires at Conservative Bloggers Re: Obama's Great Uncle Charlie
May 29, 2008 10:04 PM
His name, according to the Obama campaign, was Charles T. Payne.
He was born in February 1925, and he served in the 89th Infantry Division of the Army during World War II.
Checking out Obama's story -- you may recall that on Memorial Day, Obama mistakenly said his great uncle was one of the soldiers who helped liberate the concentration camp Auschwitz, when in fact the 89th helped liberate Buchenwald -- our friends at Politifact looked into the matter.
"Although we were not able to reach Payne directly, Payne's son, Richard Payne, said his father 'definitely served in the 89th Infantry Division' and confirmed that Obama's account was substantially accurate, except for identifying the wrong concentration camp. Richard Payne declined to say anything further."
Politifact spoke with researchers at the National Personnel Records Center, who reported that "Army personnel records for Payne would have been destroyed in a 1973 fire that consumed many such archives, but they dug up a 'Morning Report' dated April 11, 1945, showing Pfc. Charles T. Payne was assigned to the 355th Regiment Infantry, Company K. The Records Center provided a copy of the report."
Then there's the unofficial website dedicated to the 89th Infantry Division. Politifact spoke with Mark Kitchell, son of 89th veteran Raymond E. Kitchell, who has a list of servicemen -- a list that includes Pfc. C.T. Payne, K Company, 355th Infantry Regiment, 89th Infantry Division -- from the official Division History book.
Politifact concluded that while Obama erred in the name of the concentration camp, the story otherwise checked out.
**
An interesting side story here -- the Kitchells are not particularly happy with the conservative bloggers who have set out to prove Obama was "lying" about his great uncle.
On their website, the Kitchells have written:
"Concerning the service of Mr. Charles Payne: C.T. Payne was a soldier in the 89th Infantry Division. He served in the 355th Infantry Regiment, Company K. The 355th Infantry Regiment was the unit to liberate Ohrdruf. Mr. Payne was there.
"For those who seek to minimize the horrors of Ohrdruf since it was a 'work' camp and not a 'death' camp, we have but one word: shame. Ironically, this argument has been made to us time and time again by various Holocaust-deniers and other pro-Nazi groups. We will let the testimony of survivors and veterans speak for themselves.
"'It has been recorded that in Ordruf itself the last days were a slaughterhouse. We were shot at, beaten and molested. At every turn went on the destruction of the remaining inmates. Indiscriminant criminal behavior (like the murderers of Oklahoma City some days ago). Some days before the first Americans appeared at the gates of Ordruf, the last retreating Nazi guards managed to execute with hand pistols, literally emptying their last bullets on whomever they encountered leaving them bleeding to death as testified by an American of the 37th Tank Battalion Medical section, 10 a.m. April 4, 1945.
"'Today I'm privileged thanks to G-d and you gallant fighting men. I'm here to reminisce, and reflect, and experience instant recollections of those moments. Those horrible scenes and that special instance when an Allied soldier outstretched his arm to help me up became my re-entrance, my being re-invited into humanity and restoring my inalienable right to a dignified existence as a human being and as a Jew. Something, which was denied me from September 1939 to the day of liberation in 1945. I had no right to live and survived, out of 80 members of my family, the infernal ordeal of Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Ordruf, and its satellite camp Crawinkle and finally Theresinstadt Ghetto-Concentration Camp.
"'Rabbi Murray Kohn'
**
Then there's this remarkable exchange between the conservative bloggers at Sweetness & Light and Ray Kitchell, who served with the 89th:
From: Steve Gilbert
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:14 AM
Subject: Any Record Of Charles W Payne?
Mr. Kitchell,
As you may have heard by now, Barack Obama has claimed that his great uncle Charlie Payne was a member of the 89th Div that liberated Buchenwald.
According to records his full name is either Charles W Payne or Charles T Payne (most likely the former), and he was born in 1924 — and he is still alive today.
He most likely was from Kansas at the time of enlistment.
Do you have any record of this gentleman?
Thank you,
Steve Gilbert
sweetness-light.com
PS - If you go to my website, you will see that I was probably the first to note the error in Mr. Obama’s first claims about his “uncle.”
**
And the response:
Please crawl back under the rock you came out from.
Good day
Raymond Kitchell, veteran 89th Inf Div
**
Kitchell also wrote in a subsequent email: "Please spend ample time chasing down the lies fed to you by chickenhawks Bush & Co. Like 90% of this administration, they don’t have the foggiest idea what we went through or what we saw at Ohrdruf." *
The response at Sweetness & Light was to compare Kitchell to Cindy Sheehan.
- jpt
* It's been pointed out to me that the Cindy Sheehan comparison was in response to the "chickenhawks" email, so I added it for better context.
May 29, 2008 | Permalink | Share | User Comments (70)
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Why do Libs call it "ugliness" when someone is very politely fact checking?
Has it now become "ugly" to merely question a Democrat candidate's statements?
Lord knows, y'all question EVERTHING said by a conservative- And if the answer doesn't suit ya- then you ignore it or lie about it.
Posted by: Ex-Tex | May 30, 2008 9:23:14 AM
Check your sources people.'I heard' isn't anything like good enough in terms of history. I research family and military history and the golden rule is always to find and quote original documents). Without references, any statements are at least as unreliable as you consider Obama's words to have been - more so, as he has family members and at least one former soldier of the 89th supporting his version of events.
By the way, every family historian is awawre that even source documents themselves can be unreliable,in which case other sources are used to verify them where possible.
Posted by: Carol | May 30, 2008 9:14:15 AM
What has the world come to in tracking down someone's uncle from World War II to make sure his accounting of war horrors is the truth?
I thank all the people who spoke up and defended Barack's uncle's story. I'm very proud they pretty much told the people looking for a "story" to go to he_ _. Way to stay strong old timers. Most of us appreciate your service to the country and sympathize with the horrific treatment so many received and witnessed.
We really have to give this kind of stuff a rest and honor our past and current servicemen and women.
Posted by: Honor and Dignity | May 30, 2008 9:13:46 AM
Ron
And that's what you base your vote on. How sad!
Posted by: S | May 30, 2008 8:32:01 AM
Politically, I have little in common with Mr. Obama. But the hate being spewed by his detractors is appalling and I am just about convinced that voting for him is a moral necessity.
Posted by: Ron | May 30, 2008 8:00:38 AM
Is Obama real or is he memorex?
Posted by: S | May 30, 2008 7:54:03 AM
I am glad that the WW2 Veterans could confirm the essentially true facts from his great Uncle's service.
I'd like to know why Republicans honor McCain's service in Vietnam, denigrate Kerry's record by Swiftboating him, disregard Cheney and Bush's honor in service, and trump up outrage over Payne's service.
One standard applies to all. Thank you for putting your life on the line for this country. If you weren't willing, we would not exist as a country.
Posted by: Genna | May 30, 2008 7:49:29 AM
So let me get this straight.
Obama wants us to associate him with old Uncle Charlie and his Grandfather who fought in WWII as though that makes Obama himself a patriotic American.
But we aren't supposed to associate him with those who have been pivotal in his life for the past 20 years like Rev. Wright, Father Pfleger, William Ayers, and Tony Rezko as though that makes Obama himself a racist, anti-American, corrupt politician.
Huh?
Posted by: HoosierSue | May 30, 2008 7:37:12 AM
Then why do his enlistment papers say he joined the navy.
It seems obama's cousin is lying for obama
Posted by: trettine | May 30, 2008 7:35:34 AM
Another thing: today what is taking place by the Left is the equivalent of what occured in WWII, and with a similar ugly twist.
Except today, instead of yelling, "jooooooos," the Left is yelling "Republicaaaans."
Same goals, however, same intents, same politics, I fear, once again from a Left politic that seeks to eradicate who they target. In these times, the Left is repeating the same behaviors that they boast they opposed in WWII.
Posted by: Raleigh | May 30, 2008 6:43:13 AM
ABC, your statement...
"The response at Sweetness & Light was to compare the World War II veteran to Cindy Sheehan."
...is misleading, and terribly so.
I just read that site and the full exchange and they described the contrary correspondent's "politics" as being those of Sheehan's and from what I read that the vet wrote and how, I'd say that's correct a description of the guy.
So he's a hero for what he did in WWII and no one would ever even try to say that wasn't so. But the site contacted him politely and asked a very important question and the response was nasty.
Also, that response (series of responses) from that vet was uncalled for. Entirely crude. I wonder at what point someone's heroic actions in their past justifies mistreating people in the present?
"Go crawl back under the rock you came from" is pretty wretched a thing to say to such a civil inquiry, it's just politically motivated and entirely cruel.
Posted by: Raleigh | May 30, 2008 6:39:39 AM
My goodness a personal family story he SHARE ...is now getting a CSI look over.
Whats next !!! To see if the DOG he draw in kindegarten really had 4 legs.
Posted by: alan | May 30, 2008 6:20:28 AM
DNC leaders, Do you ralize that Obama can not win the General Election with only the Africa American vote and the vote of a few college freshmen?
Posted by: libre | May 30, 2008 5:54:59 AM
If my Pastor said America is responsible for 9/11 and "god d@#$ America", wouldn’t most Americans stand up and walk out.... How can a US Senator Take that...
Obama said, "I was never there", and then later "I was there" ...
Posted by: kerry | May 30, 2008 3:24:25 AM
Sen. Obama " I never took and will never take money from the oil companies." He only took 215k from the Oil Industry. And he has two Oil Industry Executives on his fundraising staff... change?
Way back when (last month) EVERYONE was watching the S Carolina debate to find out if Sen. Obama was real change from the politics as usual...
Obama On Tony Rezco, "I only worked for five hours for a client as a junior lawyer." and later, "he never asked me for anything." Is he lying or naïve?
Posted by: kerry | May 30, 2008 3:23:44 AM
Obama LIED about his own father!!
Throughout 2007, Obama went around the country weaving a false narrative about his father's connection to the Kennedy family.
Posted by: kerry | May 30, 2008 3:22:48 AM
some typo errors but i hope you understand the contents.
Posted by: vuzous | May 30, 2008 2:50:51 AM
Judging by some of the phoniness whether it is hidden behind religion or the flag I have a hard time deciding whether false religion or false patriotism is the greater refuge for scoundrels. The comments also appear to make true the comment of Sinclair Lewis of fascism coming to America behind a flag and cross although you would probably have to add hooded sheets for some of the folks on the blog for a full picture.
Posted by: bhciapol | May 30, 2008 2:01:30 AM
Obama's geneology has Charles W Payne listed as his great Uncle, records show Charles W was in the Navy. Charles T Payne does not show up on Obama's family tree.
Posted by: Comet | May 30, 2008 1:53:30 AM
For those such as Frieda, here is what a LIE is. A LIE is when someone says something that they know is untrue. By Frieda's simpleton definition of LIE, McCain Lied when he said Al Quaeda trains in Iran. Extreme words from extreme people.
Posted by: JTS | May 30, 2008 1:52:52 AM
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