Political Punch

**** Does that mean that they're saying Howard Wolfson doesn't know what he's talking about? ****

Isn't Wolfson the fool who helped Hillary Clinton go down in an embarrassment of flames during and after the primary season?

Why would Barack Obama who is currently enjoying the benefit of Wolfson's ignorance listen to what he has to say?

I think the Panama birth and raising by a US military family should be fully exposed, hand in hand with the Hawaiian birth and raising in Hawaii and Indonesia for Obama.

Full disclosure of all information is always the best policy. Please note that McCain has never shied away from the fact that he was born in the Panama US zone and was there as a young child. Obama has run as fast as he can ever since the primaries ended from any reference to his 5 years in Indonesia and attending school in Indonesia.

JG, What about McCain being born in Panama, which is not a state in The United States of America?? How do you feel about that?? Yes, I know, his dad was in the Navy and was stationed in Panama; however, McCain was NOT BORN AND RAISED within our borders...until he was a older. I asked for your take on this but I didn't see a reply in your post.

Why are Democrats so afraid of the Clintons?

Why do they spend so much time sucking up to the Clintons and worrying about whether they are happy or sad?

The Clintons are doing just fine without you guys....they've managed to rake in $100 million a year without a single blue collar voter's help. And for all the women who are wringing their hands, please remember that Hillary didn't seek you out until after she lost Iowa and looked to lose New Hampshire.

Until Democrats are able to let go of their fear of "what will Bill and Hillary think" and stand on their own two feet, they will continue to lose presidential elections.

McCain's counting on it.

Posted by: Suzanne
------------------
I don't believe the real democrats are asking that question, "What does Hilliary want", or "think". Her fanatical supporters keep whimpering about how bad Hilliary had it during the campaign; what they KNOW but refuse to admit is that Hilliary and Bill, and her campaign, did a lot of negative things which begged for negative press, and those supporters blame Senator Obama and the DNC, so the press is the one asking those specific questions. As far as I am concerned, I do not care WHAT the Clintons want, Hilliary lost, Senator Obama won fair and square, period, there should be no further discussion. I saw PUMA today, what a bunch of crazies, making up all kinds of false accusations. This group is NOT democratic, they are like Cindy Shehan(sp) just seeking attention for themselves. They are not concerned about our country or the democratic party, they are only concerned about WHAT THEY WANT: A woman of president; they are blind to everything, and I mean everything else. Their attitude is everbody else is wrong and we are the ONLY ONES that are RIGHT!! In my book, they are egotists who probably don't really care about Hilliary herself, Minnie Mouse could be running for president and they'd still behave in the same manner, as long as the candidate is female. I am certain that should the media stop asking the question, it would just slip away into oblivian. I, too, get sick and tired of the question being posed consistently. Who care what the Clintons want, this election is NOT about them and it is time they acknowledge as much! But you know the Clintons, they believe the limelight belongs to THEM!!

Well Willie, you certainly came full circle with that last comment - accusing me of hysteria because I point out that the use of hysteria robs potentially persuasive arguments of their full power.

Deny it all you like, but the major message of the Obama campaign in both the Kansas ad and the convention (as ongoing and to come) is that Obama is from the "heartland of America".

The hair splitting claim that Obama only says his "roots" are in Kansas, not that he is actually from the "heartland of America", is simply not true. The entire purpose of the Kansas ad was to send the message that Obama is from the heartland of America, when, indeed, he is not.

Posted by: JG
--------------
JG, Senator Obama has NEVER claimed to be from the heartland of Kansas!! He has often talked of his grandparents living in Kansas and raising his mom in Kansas. Sorry, your obsession with this is beginning to affect your mind where now you are imagining things. If I were you, I'd give it a rest and go play a game of volleyball or something to relax you. {*_*)

I do think claiming Obama is from the "heartland of America" is a major stretch at best and a intentional misrepresentation at worst.

Posted by: JG
----------------
JG, are you STILL on Senator Obama's Kansas roots? My, you sure are obsessed with this aren't you. Better be careful, you'll wake up at 3:00 AM chanting, Obama does not have Kansas roots, he was born in Hawaii and that is not part of the Continental United States, he did not live in Kansas, he did not live in Kansas! (Repeated over and over again!!) The fact is his grandparents were FROM Kansas, they LIVED there with their daughter until they all moved to Washington State and moved to Hawaii. His grandparents raised him from age 10 unti he left for college, they and his mom TAUGHT him THEIR VALUES AND THEIR WAY OF LIFE. As you know, while we might feel one way in New York City, there are people in Washington State who do not feel the same way---this is very true throughout the United States. It has a lot to do with HOW we are raised and what we are taught. Wouldn't you agree with this?? I believe Senator Obama's values and morals are outstanding, for instance: one house, one spouse and two beautful and lovely little girls who are loved and cherished by their parents, Barack and Michelle Obama! Nothing can replace that kind of love and commitment, NOTHING!

When Obama loses and he will he will join the loser ranks he stole to get where he is at.

From PUMA:

Rezko’s Boys: Obama and Biden

It doesn’t happen often, but it’s about to happen in 2008. A convicted fixer is about to have two of his boys as the official nominees of the democratic party.

Who might those two be? Why, Obama and Biden of course.

In today’s Chicago Sun-Times it is indicated that Biden’s Midwest Campaign manager in the 1988 presidential primary, a guy who also maintained ties with Biden in the early part of his 2008 run, is a key figure in the Tony Rezko trialk. We are referring to none other than Joseph Cari.

Cari pled guilty to a federal extortion charge this year, and like his “mentor”, Tony Rezko is currently awaiting sentencing.

Very appropriate!

Let's see, McCain is a rich man, and a very nasty rich man at that....so he has Hades for which to look forward!! McCain has poor judgement, poor family values, does not honor his wifes, lies like a rug, besmirches others with his slander, has no integrity, is extremely dishonest, is a many-time adulterer and a gold digger, never merited going to the Naval Academy, never merited getting his fighter jet pilot license, and remained in the U.S. Navy even AFTER crashing five fighter jets, setting an aircraft carrier on fire, and killing 135 comrades. How could all these "freebees on a silver platter" have happened? Both McCain's grandfather and father were high-ranking Navy admirals; they used their power and influene to have little Johnny Boy admitted to the Naval Academy which Little Johhny Boy almost flunked -- graduated 294 out of 999 of his class, which means an average of Ds and D minuses!! Anybody in this category would NOT have received his "wings"! Hey, but the dual admirals to the rescue again!! Anyone who did the things LIttle Johnny Boy did in the Navy (see above) would have been courtmartialled and sent to prison, or at the very least, been kicked out of the service. Guess what? The dual admirals to Little Johnny Boy's rescue YET AGAIN!! When 40 year old Little Johnny Boy returns from Nam, he is unhappy with his wife's appearance---a beauty and a model who had been in a near-fatal accident. The doctors had to remove parts of her leg bones, which were shattered, in order to prevent amputation, Thus she was 5 inches shorter, had put on some weight, and walked with a definite limp. Little Johnny Boy decided he no longer wanted or loved his wife and three children, so he hit the mongering lifestyle, finally settling on 22-year old Cindy, a rich, rich young woman. They shacked up togeter, bought their marriage license BEFORE the divorce was final and promptly married five weeks after finalization of the divorce. Both Cindy & Little Johnny Boy (age 40) had low moral ethics and low family values!! What has changed since then?? Furthermore, Cindy's daddy was a rich, rich man who was very powerful and influential in the political arena, he is the one who introduced and used his power an influence to get little Johnny Boy into the Congreas. So,you see, Littl Johnny Boy never had to work hard for anything, EVERYTHING WAS HANDED TO HIM ON A SILVER PLATTER WHETHER HE DESERVED OR NOT!! Cindy, after being marrie to McCain, worked for a children's charity; she got caught stealing prescribed medication to support her drug habit. Did she get punished for stealing drugs and possession of drugs?? Heck no, heck her husband was in the U.S. Congress and her Daddy was still rich, powerful and influential. Folks these are things for which the average Joe and average Cindy end up in jail for doing! Do we really want them in our White House?? I think NOT!

Obama is really upset about an ad linking him to the unrepentant domestic terrorists Ayers. McCain's campaign staff reply:

"The fact that Barack Obama chose to launch his political career at the home of an unrepentant terrorist raises more questions about Senator Obama's judgment than any TV ad ever could," said McCain spokesman Brian Rogers.

Well Willie, you certainly came full circle with that last comment - accusing me of hysteria because I point out that the use of hysteria robs potentially persuasive arguments of their full power.

Deny it all you like, but the major message of the Obama campaign in both the Kansas ad and the convention (as ongoing and to come) is that Obama is from the "heartland of America".

The hair splitting claim that Obama only says his "roots" are in Kansas, not that he is actually from the "heartland of America", is simply not true. The entire purpose of the Kansas ad was to send the message that Obama is from the heartland of America, when, indeed, he is not.

JG "I do think claiming Obama is from the "heartland of America" is a major stretch"

Me: The major stretch is you claiming that Obama saus he is *from* Kansas. Obama doesn't, he says he has roots in Kansas.

But your never going to acknowledge that you are misrepresenting Barack.

But I noticed a major case of cognitive dissonance when you blamed Nina of ‘hysterics’ and in the next sentence claimed, "overhyped drama robs hardcore Obama supporters of the full persuasive power of their arguments."

There's some major hysterics and ad hominems going on right there, but contrary to your believes, it's coming from you.

im just kidding obammas gonna kick butt

I do think claiming Obama is from the "heartland of America" is a major stretch at best and a intentional misrepresentation at worst.

Nina:

There is no need for such hysterics, I do believe the overhyped drama robs hardcore Obama supporters of the full persuasive power of their arguments.

That aside, my family is from England, Scotland, Ireland and Germany, with a little Native American (Mohawks) after my ancestors got over to North America.

That does not mean I have European roots. I do think the Obama campaign is doing what it must to push the narrative that Obama is from the "heartland of America" (see first general election campaign ad, "Kansas") to get Obama elected. No other strategy will work.

My point is that a strategy that claims Obama is from the "heartland of America" even though he did not set foot in continental America until he was 18 or 19 is logically inconsistent with claiming Biden is the "average Joe from Scranton PA" when Biden left PA when he was 10.

The two narratives cannot stand together under logical scrutiny, notwithstanding emotional outbursts and ad hominems.

the funny thing is even though this is getting blown out of proportion I am sure...

of course Obama will "honor" clinto with a few lines...

and this all just makes Bill Clinton look worse and makes people lean just a little more away from them and more to the future so

all in all it's probably a good thing...that in the midst of the dems trying to honor the 40th anniversary of Bobby kennedy running and getting shot and Ted Kennedy coming to the end game of a long battle that makes any pol look like a volunteer...

we are worrying if Obama is talking enough about Bill Clinton's legacy...

I know it sounds like an attack but ...you know his worry about his dang legacy isn't that why we got in the situation we did at the close of his administration...

I am a little disgusted.

sorry but how can you not be bothered by the fact that here he is worrying about the same stupid crap that caused him to lie on the damn witness stand and worrying about hias legacy lying to us.

I think lots of great things happened during his administration but...even Hillary must be like... Bill's ego just makes you want to... choke the living crap out of him doesn't it?

and again it's not about getting Hillary through this...it's about his legacy. ugh.

Posted by: dl | Aug 25
-----------------------
dl, Amen! Also, Senator Obama is giving his acceptance speech on the very same date that Dr. Martin Luther King, II, gave his famous "I HAVE A DREAM SPEECH"!! Dr. King must be smiling broadly and saying, "Amen, Amen!" for, you see, his dream IS, up to this point, becoming reality!! And to that,I say, Thank YOU, Dr. King, for your enduring message, your hard works, your bravery, your "I HAVE A DREAM SPEECH" and the ultimate price which you paid for EQUALITY in these United States! Thank you, Sir!

JG
"Obama did not even live in the continential United States until he was 18 or 19"
--------------
Oh, nice one. Hawaii is not REALLY America. Because it's not ‘continental’.

Want to redefine anything else. West Coast is not ‘really’ America? East Coast is not ‘really’ America? Only Texas is really America?
------------------------
JG, I have been reading your posts and I find you to be to be overly preoccupied with Senator Obama's "Kansas roots". Do you know the difference between having Kansas roots and living in Kansas? What country did your family come from originally?? For example, was it London, but you never lived there? That would define YOU as having "London Roots" because that is from where your family orignated. The same applies to Senator Obama. His Kansas roots might even be fresher than yours considering his Mom lived in Kansas, as did his grandfather and grandmother. I think it is time you stopped trying to find lint wwhere there is none. And, YES, Hawaii is as much a part of the United States as California and the rest of the states that make up "THE United States of America.

Which prompts me to say, McCain was born in Panama which is not a State of the United Stats. I am curious to see how you feel about HIM not being born in the United States.

"n an interview with the editorial board of the Chicago Tribune published September 26, 2004, Democratic Senate candidate Barack Obama said he would favor the use of “surgical” missile strikes against Iran if it failed to bow to Washington’s demand that it eliminate its nuclear energy program. Obama also said that, in the event of a coup that removed the Musharraf regime in Pakistan, the US should attack that nation’s nuclear arsenal."

Willem:

Hawaii is not in the continental United States. Like it or not, that is the truth.

It appears that anytime a fact is presented that you do not like, you simply make fun of it instead of coming to grips with the reality.

Obama's campaign saying he's from the "heartland of America" (see "Kansas" ad, Obama's first general election ad) when the man did not set foot in continental America until after he graduated high school is disingenious at best and intentionally misleading at worst.

No amount of Madison avenue spin can change the basic facts of Obama's whereabouts the past 47 years.

So Wolfson is demanding that Obama grovel to the Clintons at the convention? Well, if Obama can't handle a has-been like Bill Clinton, folks like Putin and bin Laden will eat his lunch on the internatinal scene. Its time to man-up people, this isn't the minor leagues.

Posted by: J. Nickell
---------------------
Do you really KNOW why Bill is so angry? I don't think it is so much that Hiliary lost, it is that he, Bill Clinton, lost! He "inserted himself into her "ticket", you know, the two for one deal? Just like when he ran for Prez in 1992 and 1996. Bill Clinton is especially angry at this young man who is black literally knocked down the "Formidable Mighty CLINTONIAN MACHINE" which has lorded it over the Dems since 1992! THAT is what Bill is really upset about. You see, that Formidable Mighty Clintonian machine ceased to exist once Senator Obama won 12 contests in a row and it was clear Hilliary would not be able to catch up. Then when Senator Obama was formally named the winner, that was it, the end of that formidable mighty Clintonion machine. Bill is still trying to hang on to that title when in actuality it no longer applies and no longer exists. Time for Bill to accept what "is" is!

JG
"Obama did not even live in the continential United States until he was 18 or 19"

Oh, nice one. Hawaii is not REALLY America. Because it's not ‘continental’.

Want to redefine anything else. West Coast is not ‘really’ America? East Coast is not ‘really’ America? Only Texas is really America?

So Obama needs to bring in talented people and talk in between them to get people to come see him?

Just like in Germany, he had a popular German band play before hand.

As far as him mentioning Bill, too little too late, it will be seen as a political convience!!

I did not like Bill, but he deserved better then how Obama attacked him!! and Hilary also!

Posted by: spock | Aug
----------------------
Hey, spock, ALL the tickets were already taken BEFORE Bruce Springstein announced he would play at the convention! I hope he plays and sings, "BORN IN AMERICA" and "THE RISING"!!

How quickly you forget!! It was Hilliary and Bill who were playing the Rovean Card, among others, like the gender card (tears) (being picked on by the boys' club, etc). The Clintons were downright nasty!! So, please stop trying to make excuses or blame the rest of the world for their own tawdry behavior and slander and lies, and fraudulant claims (like Bosnia). Come on, pull yourself up from the world of IFs and delusion and face reality, you'll feel the better for it!

JG: "You cannot contest this fact, as it is true."

There you go again. I, or anybody else, have never contested it. Barack Obama has been upfront about it before you even had heard about Barack Obama.

It is you who wants to conflate "having roots" with "having lived". You are the one who is being disingenuous about it. That's not an ad hominem attack, it's called straigth talk

Hahahaha.

Is McCain's wooing of Hillary-backers going to destroy his "roots"?

McCain held a press conference with one of these Hillary backers. She was asked if she wasn't afraid that McCain would repeal Roe v. Wade. This is what she answered:
"Going back to 1999, John McCain did an interview with the San Francisco Chronicle saying that overturning Roe v. Wade would not make any sense, because then women would have to have illegal abortions."

So, he's couring people who think he'll repeal Roe v. Wade AND he's courting people who think he'll NOT repeal Roe v. Wade.
What a campaign.

Willem:

I agree that your presentation of "roots" below, bootstrapping Obama's life history to also include his mother's and grandmothers's so as to give Obama kansas "roots", is the best possible way the Obama campaign can attempt to sellthe public on the narrative that Obama is from the heartland of America.

Problem is, its simply not true. Obama did not even live in the continential United States until he was 18 or 19. You cannot contest this fact, as it is true. Shading the truth by bootstrapping the living situation of Obama's family onto his own might work, but its still a misrepresentation.

JG: you distort the meaning of the word "roots". Obama has been brought up by his mother and grandmother (who he credits for having the greatest influence on him). Both are from Kansas.
They have been brought up with heartland values and views on life, and they have instilled those in Barack.

Those are his roots. To paraphrase a saying: You can take a person out of Kansas, but you can not take Kansas out of a person.

Hillary's ultimate objective is to be the first female president of the US. Her best chance of accomplishing that goal is if McCain is elected and she can run again in 4 years. Face it, if Obama wins and is therefore the incumbent in 4 years, Hillary is pushed out 8 years and then would have to overcome both the age and gender questions. She will support Obama with token enthusiasm and hope that enough of her supporters temporarily defect to McCain to allow the fulfillment of her dreams in 4 years.

Posted by: alvinels
----------------------
(EDITED VERSION)
I am with you on your assessement of Hilliary's plans. Should, perchance, McCain get elected and serves one term, then, of course Hilliary would run in 2012. However, she would not be running against a "black" man but against a WHITE man, and after this year, I doubt many would jump on board with her--other than her diehard supporters. So, IF McCain wins, and Hilliary runs in 2012, there is NO guarantee she would win....in fact, I would bet she would lose big time. Hilliary and Bill burnt a lot of bridges in 2008, which, of course, is unfortunate. As much as Senator Obama has to offer our country, and I believe he could and would lift our country up, my belief is he would never run for presidet again if he loses 2008. Why go though all the BS, humiliation and degradation he has had to endure, all over again?? I would be pleased and proud to have him as our President and Commander-in-Chief! However, whatever happens, Senator Obama has been gifted with many blessings and wonderful talents, that no matter what he does, he will be a great and influential man!! And, yes, he would be a great and influential President of
the USA and a strong and powerful CIC!

For those of you who think an old soldier is what it takes to be president, I would like for you to think about who would actually be the best person to lift us out of the quagmire which GWB, Cheney, McCain and the Republicans have led us to. IF you want more of the same, but worse, then go ahead and vote for McCain ......you are throwing the entire country into further destruction and eventually a third-world country. You cannot go around singing "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran and saying "sending large shipments of cigerettes to Iran is a good way to kill Iranians (yes, innocent women and children too!!)! You can't go around you hate certain coutries, like Russia. He hates Russia so much, but evidently loves Mr. Putin as he made him the president of GERMANY at a townmeeting!! Go to You Tube and view what nuclear war looks like!! It is absolutel horrible!

After this week Harlem in New York City is going to love Hillary and Bill again. When they hit the campaign trail for Obama after labor day, Harlem will be ready to vote for Hillary again. You see in America people are given a second chance!!!

the funny thing is even though this is getting blown out of proportion I am sure...

of course Obama will "honor" clinto with a few lines...

and this all just makes Bill Clinton look worse and makes people lean just a little more away from them and more to the future so

all in all it's probably a good thing...that in the midst of the dems trying to honor the 40th anniversary of Bobby kennedy running and getting shot and Ted Kennedy coming to the end game of a long battle that makes any pol look like a volunteer...

we are worrying if Obama is talking enough about Bill Clinton's legacy...

I know it sounds like an attack but ...you know his worry about his dang legacy isn't that why we got in the situation we did at the close of his administration...

I am a little disgusted.

sorry but how can you not be bothered by the fact that here he is worrying about the same stupid crap that caused him to lie on the damn witness stand and worrying about hias legacy lying to us.

I think lots of great things happened during his administration but...even Hillary must be like... Bill's ego just makes you want to... choke the living crap out of him doesn't it?

and again it's not about getting Hillary through this...it's about his legacy. ugh.

Willem:

You really believe that the intent of the "Kansas" ad and the tons of surrogate talk is not to project the narrative that Obama is from the heartland?

The distinction between "roots" and "living" cannot excuse this Obama misrepresentation, the campaign's clear intent is to mislead regarding Obama's actual circumstances of residence.

have never, in my life, seen a fomer president so peturlant, egotistical, and who believes our country revolves around HIM. What an embarrassment to our nation!

as opposed to a less than 1 term Senator who believes the world revolves around him?

Willem:

You once again resort to ad hominem argument and eschew attacking the logic of my position. Bush II lived in Texas for decades, Obama never lived in Kansas for a single day.

No amount of spin and shrill attacks can change that fact, although i applaud the Obama campaign's attempts to thread the needle to create a misleading narrative to save his campaign. Obviously you've been convinced. :)

The bottom line is that the Bush II situation, while in contrast to Obama as Bush actually lived in Texas, is irrelevant to the Obama messaging now.

The only relevant point is that the messaging on candidate bios between Biden and Obama are in direct logical contradiction, and Obama's campaign will eventually have to answer for that inconsistency if anyone in the MSM has the guts to ask him.

JG: "Obama has never lived in Kansas"

And Obama is not claiming he lived in Kansas. Your inability to understand the difference between "having Kansas roots" and "living in Kansas" does not in any way reflect on Obama. It does on you.

Dubya's claim he is a Texan is totally fake. He's never lived the life of a real Texan. His image as a ‘Texan cowboy’ is the pure imagery. He's afraid of horses, doesn't ride one, even tried to ‘milk’ a stallion once.

I agree Nina, he's making a mockery of himself all over again. This reminds me of the South Carolina primary.

I have never, in my life, seen a fomer president so peturlant, egotistical, and who believes our country revolves around HIM. What an embarrassment to our nation!

Hillary's ultimate objective is to be the first female president of the US. Her best chance of accomplishing that goal is if McCain is elected and she can run again in 4 years. Face it, if Obama wins and is therefore the incumbent in 4 years, Hillary is pushed out 8 years and then would have to overcome both the age and gender questions. She will support Obama with token enthusiasm and hope that enough of her supporters temporarily defect to McCain to allow the fulfillment of her dreams in 4 years.

Posted by: alvinels
----------------------
I am with you on your assessement of Hilliary's plans. Should, perchance, McCain get elected and serves one term, then, of course Hilliary would run in 2012. However, she would not be running against a "black" man but against a WHITE man, and after this year, I doubt very much many would jump on board with her--other than her diehard supporters. So, IF McCain wins, and Hilliary runs in 2012, there is NO guarantee she would win....in fact, I would bet she would lose big time. Hilliary and Bill burnt a lot of bridges in 2008, which, of course, is unfortunate. As much as Senator Obama has to offer hour country, and I believe he could and would lift our country up, my belief is he would never run for presidet again if he loses 2008. Why go though all the BS, humiliation and degradation he has had to endure, all over again?? I would be pleased and proud to have him as our President an Commander and Chief! However, whatever happens, Senator Obama has been gifted with those wonderful things, that no matter what he does, he will be a great and influential man!! And, yes, he would be a great and influential President of
the USA and a strong and powerful CIC!

For those of you who think an old soldier is what it take to be president, I would like for you to think about who would actually be the best person to lift us out of the quagmire which GWB, Cheney, McCain and the Republicans have led us to. IF you want more of the same, but worse, ......you are throwing the entire country into obscurity and destruction.

Willem:

Bush II actually lived in Texas. Obama has never lived in Kansas. That is the simple, undeniable truth and the difference between the Bush II story about Texas and the Obama story about Kansas. I think Obama is smart to run with the "Kansas roots" story and obviously it is working - look at the slavish attempts to explain how Obama has "Kansas roots" despite the fact that Obama himself never lived there. Not even for a single day. The fact that Obama's campaign is pulling it off is just more kudos to them.

However, my point is in the face of that excellent (even if not factually based regarding Obama's actual places of residence) marketing ploy, making the #1 talking point about Biden that he grew up and was raised in Scranton, PA, despite the fact that he was only there until age 10, while Obama was in Indonesia as an expatriate from ages 5-10, is logically inconsistent with their "Kansas roots" strategy. Risky too, because somewhere sometime a MSM will ask an Obama surrogate that question.

JG: "Obama will be presented as having Kansas roots,"

Are you denying Obama has Kansas roots? He was brought up by his maternal grandmother, who is from Kansas. Obama does not say he is raised in Kansas. He says he Kansas roots.

Everybody thinks Dubya is from Texas. He's not. He's born in New Haven, Connecticut and has spent most of his childhood at Kannebunkport, Maine.
His Texan roots are entirely fake.

Nina:

I agree that a 5 year old has no say in where they are at or deciding to move, nor does a 10 year old. The first anyone can plausibly claim to have control over where they are is after they turn 18 and/or get out of high school.

That is my point on the logical inconsistency between the democratic rollout of Biden as "the man from Scranton", even though he left, via his parents, at age 10 AND the focus on Obama's "Kansas roots" even though Obama himself never lived in Kansas and indeed did not grow up in middle class heartland America, but instead as an expatriate in Indonesia until age 10.

Willem:

You really think so? Watch his ads sometime, and pay careful attention to the convention framing. Obama will be presented as having Kansas roots, while Biden will be the average Joe PA guy. No mention of Indonesia either in Obama's ads nor the convention.

Posted by: JG |
--------------
JG: Senator Obama DOES HAVE KANSAS ROOTS. Both his WHITE grandparents were from Kansas and raised their daughter there before moving to Washington State when Obama's mom was in highschool. Then they moved to Hawaii where his mom and dad attended the University of Hawaii, met, fell in love, married, had a baby boy and named im Barack. His father left his wife and child when Barack was age two and did not see his son again until Barack was age 10, Barack never saw his father again. (NOW you know why Senator Obama is so insistent that fathers be there for their children) His mom eventually remarried and she and her son moved to Jakarta with him, lived there for five years and Obama returned to his White grandparents at age 10 where he was raised until he went off to college.

I might add, what control and choice does a five year old have on where his/her parents decide to live?? You make it sound like 5-year old Barack Obama decided to pack his suitcase (we didn't have backbacks then) and go live in Jakarta for five years. To become a Muslim?? Is that what you are trying to say?? Again, at age five do Children decide and choose their religious beliefs?? Think about it.

Belle Starr: "the Estate Benefits Recovery Act is THE major"

Oh, Google is surpressing any links to pages explaining this MAJOR fraudulent cause, according to you, for Clinton's surplus? They have managed to eliminate any mention of it, even on senate.gov? Which also hasn't heard of any "Estate Benefits Recovery Act"?

Spock

Exactly... Hillary is not willingly going to cut the role call for her short and ask that peole vote for Obama... its what aselrod et al are demanding she do! Im sick of this kind of corporal poltics... no pun intended

Equating my question regarding the logical inconsistency between the Biden and Obama message packaging is not a "madrassa smear". Indeed, I dont watch any of those right wing fellows you mention, I am simply a thinking person that brings logic and not emotion and ad hominems to discussing political issues.

It is not a contradiction re Obama references to Indonesia re foreign policy (during the primary) and Obama running from anything "foreign" (during the general election and convention, now).

My point is that the Obama campaign made the preeminent talking point on Biden the fact that he lived in Scranton until age 10, yet wraps himself in Kansas heartland ever since the primary. Watch his first general election ad. It's called Kansas, people. Kansas.

It is cynical to think that Hillary has been pulling for Mccain all this time and wants to run against him in '12 but what choice does she have with the Obama and mainly his stuff being so belicose, and wrong about things

Tell me something why are they cutting the roll call short? Never was done before, are they afraid Hilary may win in the roll call, and if the delegates vote for Hilary how is it unanimous for Obama!

Mary Anne

you are absoultely right... even Biden the presumtive VP nominee worships the chose Obama one...and it its curious that Obamas people have used GW Bushes campaign plan from the very beginning overwhelm people and make them think you are inevitable when you are not

The Clintons are tarnishing the Democrat
"brand" far more effectively than the
Republican oppos ever could. They are
the gift that keeps giving. May they
live long and fruitful lives under the
"Big Tent".

Hillary's ultimate objective is to be the first female president of the US. Her best chance of accomplishing that goal is if McCain is elected and she can run again in 4 years. Face it, if Obama wins and is therefore the incumbent in 4 years, Hillary is pushed out 8 years and then would have to overcome both the age and gender questions. She will support Obama with token enthusiasm and hope that enough of her supporters temporarily defect to McCain to allow the fulfillment of her dreams in 4 years.

Hillary's ultimate objective is to be the first female president of the US. Her best chance of accomplishing that goal is if McCain is elected and she can run again in 4 years. Face it, if Obama wins and is therefore the incumbent in 4 years, Hillary is pushed out 8 years and then would have to overcome both the age and gender questions. She will support Obama with token enthusiasm and hope that enough of her supporters temporarily defect to McCain to allow the fulfillment of her dreams in 4 years.

I don't care how wonderful Obama treats Bill Clinton at the convention. He made no bones about disparaging Bill Clinton's legacy to this country when he was campaigning against his wife, Senator Clinton. This country enjoyed the wealthiest period of its existence and Obama had to run him down constantly. I wouldn't care if Jesus himself was Obama's VP, I still WOULD NOT VOTE FOR HIM!!! And, I don't care what his wife has to say about him at the convention. She should be ashamed of herself, being a woman, and not taking a stand at his negativity toward Hillary Clinton as a woman. And any women who votes for Obama should be ashamed of themselves! We are already rolling out commercials encouraging women to vote for John MCCain in November and this is only the beginning. He is as big of a flip flopper as his supporter, John Kerry. And, Biden, is just another politics as usual Washington. Oh yea, there is a great ticket for America.

Off topic, but a question:

The entire Democratic establishment is stating that Biden "grew up" in Scranton, PA, with the obvious goal of helping Obama's chances in PA. Biden left PA at the age of 10.

Question: Did Obama "grow up" in Jakarta, Indonesia, and not Kansas or Hawaii as his campaign says, because Obama "grew up" in Indonesia from age 5 until he left at age 10, same age as Biden left PA?

I wonder if there are any Obama people out there who would explain how the logic of "Biden grew up in PA" and "Obama did not grow up in Indonesia" can coexist.

Thanks.
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I don't think anyone is trying to imply there was a coexistance of Senator Obama and Senator Biden from ages 5-10. It is a FACT Biden was born and raised in Scranton, PA. It is also a fact Senator Obama was born and raised in Hawaii for his first five years, moved with him mom to Jakarta and returned to Hawaii at age ten. I believe the Democratic is saying, both these men came from modest means, middle-clas America and that too, is true.

I just love how some people try to read what THEY WANT into something that has nothing to do with what THEY want.

And why be so critical?? Hilliary also claimed Scranton as her "home", recall? At least Senator Biden DID, IN FACT, LIVE THERE, he didn't just occassionally "visit".

And JG, it wouldn't surprise me when Obama addresses the ‘Indonesia’ issue head on during the Convention.

The Right, their talkshow blowhards, and their stenographers in the press, have used that ‘madrassa’ smear (because that is what you are referring to) extensively. I would certainly appreciate it if he did. Because it's something he can use as part of his credentials.

"I've never heard of that Estate bill either. Perhaps estate taxes? Seems like a red herring."
-----
Nearly NOBODY but politicians -- who all, from the city council level and up, have "socialized" health care for life -- is aware of the Estate Benefits Recovery Act, which is far from beingT "a red herring".
In fact, the Estate Benefits Recovery Act is THE major way (before the credit "crunch", in any case) in which the assets accumulated by middle and working class people are moved into the hands of the government -- after they die prematurely from crappy "health care" from any kind of "public" or semi-public (from "non-profit" rural health centers to the University of Chicago, where Michelle Obama was pulling down nearly a half-million dollars a year, to MediCaid).

I suggest you Google it up, before your survivors, if any, land in one of those confiscatory "ignorance of the law is no excuse" situations.

Obama's chickens are coming home to roost.

He labeled Bill Clinton a racist and said the Clinton/Bush years were the very same.

Donna Brazille said Obama can win without Hillary's supporters.

The Obama campaign has said he can win without FL and MI.

So be it. Let him try. The general election isn't a caucas and there isn't room in the voting booth for the SuperD's and Dem Old Guard to carry Obama over the finish line, limping and wounded.

JG: you contradict yourself. You say he is running from having lived in Indonesia, yet you acknowledge that he tells you that he has lived in Indonesia.

Both can't be true. Since you yourself acknowledge that he tells you he has lived in Indonesia, then he is not running from it.

Do you think McCain will tell you at his convention that he was an Episcopalian his entire life? Do you think he wants his Base to learn that?

I've never heard of that Estate bill either. Perhaps estate taxes? Seems like a red herring.

Willem:

No need to use ad hominems like extremely weak and clutching at straws.

Yes, Obama has said that somehow being 5-10 in Indonesia makes him better qualified than McCain to negotiate with foreign leaders.

But you miss the larger logical inconsistency and instead sweep the inconsistency under the table. The main talking point on Biden is that "hes an average Joe who was raised in Scranton" even though he left Scranton at 10 years old. Obama, in his present configuration, is running from any hint of "foreign" and instead wrapping up in the heartland of Kansas as his roots, despite the fact that he never lived in Kansas and did live in Indonesia until 10 (albeit moving there at 5).

I would just like an explanation how a thinking person can not see a logical contradiction in the message packaging about the Pres/VP . No need for ad hominem attacks, just logic.

"Bill Clinton should tell it like it is at the convention."
-----
Yes, he SHOULD -- including how that "surplus" was manufactured by the midnight enacting of the Estate Benefits Recovery Act, by which the middle classes are dispossessed in return for end-of-life "care". Wild BIll should tell the truth about hanging out with Bush I, and what he learned about fascism during his time among the lobster people.

Jesse JACKSON should tell it like it is at the convention -- who sent Obama, what happened with Edwards and the Edwards platform.

Jimmy Carter should tell it like it is at the convention.

NONE of them, at this point, has much to lose PERSONALLY except the souls in which they claim to believe, and there is much more to be lost by the un-rich American majority.

And then the Democratic delegates should nominate something more suited to the situation than a ticket to hell composed of the corporate CHANGEling and Mr. "Grew Up in Scranton" Bluster.

The Dems could have nominated Jesus Christ and they would accuse him of Pedophilia when he said "Let the little children come to me".
And they would accuse him of Class Warfare after he said that it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

--His resume - which never was that stellar anyway - has become worthless--

bingo. that's Obama post general.

--Dems and Obama himself have even used his history of living in Indonesia as basis for having a broader knowledge of the world.--

true, obama himself used it as proof of foreign policy experience, giving him an edge in dealing with the likes of Putin, Iran mullahs, etc. Seriously, that's what he said live in an interview.

JG, that's extremely weak. Assuming what YOU think will happen or not happen, and then using that *assumption* as ‘proof’ that Dems are claiming he hasn't live in Indonesia is ridiculous.

Dems and Obama himself have even used his history of living in Indonesia as basis for having a broader knowledge of the world.

You're clutching at straws.

This is all about Howard Wolfson's ego. He got outflanked by Obama's campaign/ They were better tuned into where the country was heading.

Howard's bitter. His resume - which never was that stellar anyway - has become worthless. He's now trying to salvage it by blaming others for his own shortcomings.

Sad.

Willem:

You really think so? Watch his ads sometime, and pay careful attention to the convention framing. Obama will be presented as having Kansas roots, while Biden will be the average Joe PA guy. No mention of Indonesia either in Obama's ads nor the convention.

basil: your arguments seems to be that Hillary would be a great president because Bill was a great president.

Women are not going to like that argument. It's sexist.

JG: that's a classic Straw Man Argument.

The Democrats *never* claimed "Obama did not grow up in Indonesia".

Off topic, but a question:

The entire Democratic establishment is stating that Biden "grew up" in Scranton, PA, with the obvious goal of helping Obama's chances in PA. Biden left PA at the age of 10.

Question: Did Obama "grow up" in Jakarta, Indonesia, and not Kansas or Hawaii as his campaign says, because Obama "grew up" in Indonesia from age 5 until he left at age 10, same age as Biden left PA?

I wonder if there are any Obama people out there who would explain how the logic of "Biden grew up in PA" and "Obama did not grow up in Indonesia" can coexist.

Thanks.