Political Punch

My family and I have been active parishioners of the Santa Fe parishes for over ninety years. My grandparents, parents, uncles and aunts made their First Holy Communion in local parishes, as did my siblings, cousins and I. My grandfather worked tirelessly for the church volunteering his time, doing construction, in the 1950's. Over these ninety years we have known many priests and have contributed a great amount of our time and money to the parishes of Santa Fe. Like all the parishioners, we are not a unit or a "flock" who follow without deep contemplation. We are thoughtful individuals who take our lives and our faith very seriously.

I am extremely disappointed and disturbed by recent actions of our local parishes, since I've always thought of our priests as intelligent men; that they are, through whatever instruction, taking a political stand from the pulpit at this critical time in American history, and commanding (Grammatically, "(You)vote pro-life." is a complete, commanding sentence.) parishioners to vote Republican; i.e. against Udall, Lujǻn, Obama and Biden.

This is done through implication that parishioners should vote against any candidate who does not agree with the five non-negotiable issues, as stated on:

1. Banners with the phrase vote pro-life super-imposed on the American flag (further implying through visual imagery that voting "pro-life" is an American stance) and displayed openly outside our sacred parish for all citizens to see (Then expound at the pulpit with religious authority, as we heard in Mass, to defend its implication to anyone who would rightly be offended regarding this legal issue). Why not a similar banner saying "get out of Iraq now"?

2. Instructional booklets, Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics, left near or next to the Holy Water(!)...The Holy Water, where we have all our lives blessed ourselves as we enter the church for serenity and spiritual comfort......next to a political pamphlet which supports the party (Republican) which sent us into an unjust war, where many innocent people have been killed, some say murdered; and

3. Sunday bulletins; all of these paid for by the contributions of your hard-working parishioners, like my family, who did not realize their donations would be used for political pursposes.

My family members were offended that you would use our contributions to the church, as this is taking advantage for political purposes. The Republicans party, who you are supporting and asking parishioners to vote for, is the party who sent us into an unwarranted war, where innocent Americans and Iraqi citizens have been killed and severely injured for life. Please don't take our tidings for the Church and use it for any political means. Can't you see you are saying, "Vote Republican"? Your congregation, American citizens, deserves greater respect than that.

You are highly encouraging parishioners to read the Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics. You know that the five non-negotiable issues are not on the ballot; therefore you are not commanding your parishioners to vote on those issues, but rather to vote against any candidate who does not support your views—that's a blatant and obvious political agenda intended to make parishioners feel "sinful" if they do not agree. This is one of the many reasons the church struggles to keep its congregation intact; losing parishioners and unable to bring in others.

The conclusion of your instruction is to vote for McCain, Palan and Pearce; thus you are openly taking a political stand on the candidates and their political party, and you are using money I have contributed to the church to do so. While you may not be told by other good people of the congregation, my family, friends and I find this extremely offensive, as did the thoughtful citizen who took the time to confront our parish about the banner (paid for by our tidings) seen from our public streets (paid for by our tax dollars). You have crossed the boundary and are doing much less of a service than you realize.

This is my greatest point: The right to vote freely in America is on the line and you have insulted this right at a critical time in our history. Everyone already knows the spiritual stand of the Church on the five non-negotiable issues. Please, don't insult our spiritual intelligence, while you step into our voting booth. While you say you do recognize the separation of church and state, you should also recognize that you are a tax-exempt institution and, therefore, not in a position to instruct others to take a political side and to vote as you command, through both written word and verbal word at the pulpit, nor to display this opinion to any citizen who drives past the church. If you believe you can openly direct and influence others on how to vote—a critical and important right of the American citizen—then you should be prepared to pay taxes as other private institutions, which publicly voice their political views.

If you continue to blatantly disregard this separation, while also not paying taxes, you will swiftly find this an issue to confront through legal means, since there will be no hesitation to report it as a personal offense to members of this community. I, for one, would like to know the legalities of how an institution, which pays no taxes, can use my donations for political purposes, without asking for my opinion. We are American citizens. This should be respected.

This is a very difficult and trying time for American Catholics, who are trying to reach within their own hearts and souls to make the right decisions. They do so when they go to church/to the confessional booth and they do so when they go to the voting booth. If you feel you should be able to infiltrate the minds of people with your political views, then you should be willing to pay taxes as other institutions do in order to do so. Separation of Church and state is not just a concept—it's a legal issue. Instead of using my contributions to the church for your political agenda, commanding us to vote Republican, I ask you to send it to VA hospitals to help Veterans, like members of my family, who have fought in four wars and are not getting what they need.

I hope you will immediately stop your political propaganda. Though well-intentioned from your religious point of view, it is illegal and wrong. If not, others will take this further to a public forum, starting with the editorial page of the Santa Fe New Mexican and to the state of New Mexico, for critical examination to determine its legalities.

Thank you for your immediate attention and please allow me my right to vote as I believe. The next time I go to Mass, I want to

1. hear the Scriptures; instead of a political bias on how to vote,
2. hear an emphasis from the pulpit or see in writing that the Church is NOT taking a political side and NOT asking parishioners to necessarily vote against any of our Democratic candidates, and
3. see any written propaganda removed from the church so that no parishioner is made to feel sinful by making the difficult voting decision.

When the collection plate is passed around, I, and many others, will certainly pause to think about how our donations are being used and may decide to abstain.

A parishioner for over 60 years, who will vote like a great American Catholic family who have devoted their entire lives to public service: The Kennedy's. I am a proud and active supporter of Udall, Obama, and Biden, as are the Kennedy's and other thoughtful and spiritual Catholics.

Furthermore, the disclaimer on the last page of the Voter's Guide for Serious Catholics is a contradiction in words intended to deceive or confuse the reader. Hasn't that become so prevalent in our society: To expound on a belief or a claim, then end it with a disclaimer, knowing few would read the end or the fine print, and instead focus on all the areas that were intentionally emphasized in bold print and repeated several times throughout the text? Isn't that similar to what happened in the housing market, when now thousands of innocent families are left homeless? What would Jesus think of this tactic? Perhaps you have a different opinion than mine. However, we both agree with God Bless America.

Separation of Church and State: Not Just a Concept, but a Legal Issue

It is Now Time for our Catholic Parishes to Pay Taxes?

"As you can see by Saint Thomas Aquinas’ Theologica and conditions for Just War, the Iraq War remains debatable and complicated, especially since neither we nor the Pope has access to all the classified information required to make such declaration a fact (i.e. an un-just war). Let it be clear that the Pope has every right to believe that the War “might” be un-just, however, we are absolutely not required to share this “opinion.”..........Laughable! Not to diminish the importance of abortion as the first issue, but this is George Weigel's logic and the logic of nationalists to justify a war which the Vatican decaled was gravely immoral, a crime against God and Humanity. Our Bishop contended that it was not sinful to disagree with the Pope but agreed when questioned that it was not sinful to agree with the Pope either. Evangelium vitae clears up the matter very precisely and George Weigels long winded disertation on 'just war' winds up in the evil trash bin along with abortion. People tend to pick and chose their issues depending on the political situation and that is not what we are called to do. Self deception is dangerous.

Your right Mary...

Both candidates are basically losers!

I find it sad that so many Catholics listen to FOX News and it is owned by Rupert Murdoch, a fellow who has brought us lots of filth on his many other stations. He is Republican and has used his propaganda to brainwash much of the nation. It is unbelievable that anyone would watch that biased garbage.(Same goes for some the right wing radio filth) Pro-life? Hardly. People, connect the dots.

Sarah Palin has said that she is for state's rights. She believes it should be up to the state to decide. If this is so any woman will be able to cross the state line to have an abortion. So we get nut case McCain and alot of states "doing their own thing." Great.

The powers that be (currently) are just using the abortion issue to gather more to vote for McCain. Wake up! Sleazy McCain will not do anything to change the abortion issue. He is using gullible people and low information voters to get his way.

To Mary (and confused Catholics)

Conditions for Mortal Sin

1: Grievous Matter - its subject must be a grave or serious matter.
2: Sufficient reflection - It must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (though nobody is deemed to be ignorant of the moral law, embedded into the consciences of every human being).
3: Full Consent of the Law - It must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.
Condition for “Just War.”
(St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, Q. 40, Art. 1):
1: It must be declared and waged by the lawful authority of a sovereign entity. 2: It must be fought objectively for a good cause (defense against an unjust attack, recovery of something unjustly taken, or punishment of an unjust aggression. 3: It must be fought subjectively with the right intention, to arrive at a just peace, a just order of things, given each nation its due (not for greed, cruelty, etc.).

In prudence (practical wisdom), four circumstances must also pertain:

1: The good to be gained by restoring justice must be proportionate to the evils that can be anticipated 2: It must be as certain as can be that there really was an injustice committed 3: The injustice must have harmed major, and not just minor, interest of the nation injured 4: War must be the sole means available of re-establishing justice; after all peaceful measures were unable to remedy the situation.

There is clear and obvious problem with comparing the Iraq War with Abortion. First, Catholics who favor the Pro-murder platform (like many here) know that abortion is evil. Hence, this individual has made “Sufficient reflection” and is deemed guilty of mortal sin. Yet, they also believe that the Iraq War is un-just or evil. In this situation, one might be morally obligated to not vote for either candidate or party platform. However, a Catholic who is, justifiably so, fearful of terrorism (especially after 9/11) and find comfort by our government’s actions to defend our country, could actually vote Republican with a clear conscience. As you can see by Saint Thomas Aquinas’ Theologica and conditions for Just War, the Iraq War remains debatable and complicated, especially since neither we nor the Pope has access to all the classified information required to make such declaration a fact (i.e. an un-just war). Let it be clear that the Pope has every right to believe that the War “might” be un-just, however, we are absolutely not required to share this “opinion.”

Look, vote how you want. This is only to help those who need extra guidance on this very grave matter. I honestly believe that if Catholics (who make up 24% of the US population) refused to vote Democrat years ago (since the platform of death), this would not be in issue today. We Catholics have a lot of blood on our hands (over 50 million babies). Much prayer and penance is in order (not bickering about which egotist should be president).

There is no need to vote for the lesser of two evils when there is the choice of the Constitution Party, which is pro life and anti war.

As for the capital punishment red herring - there is a vast difference between killing the innocent and executing the guilty. The Church has never condemned capital punishment as an intrinsic evil. She will always condemn injustice and encourage society to err on the side of caution when it comes to capital punishment. Yes, there are abuses in the penal system and the courts. However, abusus non tollit usum.

With regard to "proportionate" reasons for voting for either McCain or Obama - there is NOTHING proportionate to the evil of abortion and euthansia. A simple body count demonstrates that.

Sorry rhl but you are wrong....just war theory, climate for life, whatever that means, are NOT Dogma and may be argued within the Church. However, respect for life from cradle to grave which includes the grave twin depravities of ethanasia and abortion is Dogma. A Catholic is risking his soul by voting for a Pro-death Candidate.

Wow...this man thinks that Canon Lawyer and Bishops Review Board somehow elevates him to infalliable teaching position. I would like to hear him justify that one to Pope Benedict. He needs to get to Reconcilliation as soon as possible...not only for being astray but leading others astray.

It is so sad to see how many “so-called” Catholics are completely clueless about their faith (you can partially blame Vatican II for this great tragedy). First of all, let’s make it clear that neither candidate comes close to passing the Catholic litmus test. Second, Catholics are Catholic first, American second! However, many of the response scare me and I feel obligated to correct my fellow Catholics (this is not meant to offend or persuade non-Christians).

Error number 1: Believing that voting for a pro-life platform is not going to save lives anyway, so you might as well just vote for a pro murder platform. This ideology is completely false and not based on Catholic theological moral teachings. If you like Democrats, then you should stop voting for them until they change their party platform to pro-life. At least with Republicans, you will get conservative judges. With liberal judges you will get pro murder, pro gay marriage, pro sexualized society, anti-Catholic and Christian indoctrination and much more (the list goes on).

Error number 2: Roe vs. Wade is the law so we should just give up the fight. First, wasn’t abortion illegal before it was legal? Anyway, this is a democracy; and for as long as this is a democracy, the law is dynamic and can change due to public opinion. Besides, the decision on Roe vs. Wade lacked the scientific advancements of today and was deemed then as inconclusive on when life begins (read the ruling). As a Catholic, The law doesn’t matter on this issue anyway. The law didn’t matter for the thousands of Catholic martyrs during the Roman Empire either. They shed their blood in gruesome ways for the faith regardless. We can’t even save the unborn, and all we have to do is pick up a latte on the way to the voting booth (Our Lady pray for us!).

Error number 3: It’s my body so let me do what I want with it. This one is easy. A baby in “your body” is simply not your soul. It belongs to GOD! You are just the caretaker of that soul and you will be judged on your ability to protect it (it is your duty, and of course, your free will). Remember, God is all loving, perfect and just. Not to mention, we have a moral obligation to help sinners go to Heaven too.

Error number 4: What about the Iraq war, is it unjust? This is a matter of opinion not moral Catholic teachings. The Pope merely has an opinion about the war. It is not binding like the obvious murder of the unborn. A Catholic can legitimately struggle on the issue of the Iraq war because there are enough compelling arguments on both sides of the issue (i.e. evil regime, defensive war, and read St Thomas Aquinas).

Error number 5: Death penalty is like murder. This is another example of Catholics suffering from the “I’m better than Christ” syndrome. Now let’s look at this one very carefully. Again, Catholics have every right to believe that capital punishment is wrong. However, this is a matter of opinion, not moral truth. In order for capital punishment to be morally wrong certain conditions must exist (again read Saint Thomas Aquinas). For the sake of space, I will just stick to the easy one. Unlike a prisoner on death row, an aborted baby has very little chance of being baptized, freed from original sin and going to Heaven. Simple as that folks! Stop playing God and stop playing Church Catholics. Your decisions should be easy. As Catholics, we do not have a moral obligation to vote for either one of these bozos but we have a moral obligation to be Catholic first, American second.

Bottom line = vote for a pro-abortion/choice candidate and you incur automatic excommunication. PERIOD. All the foolish yapping of the lips aside, is it worth it?

Have people forgotten that OBAMA promised in July 2007 to Planned Parenthood, to sign FOCA(Freedom of Choice Act) as soon as possible after becoming president. There is absolutely no argue or rational any praticing Catholic could use to support OBAMA.

Why does Nick Cafardi say "I am Catholic but..." If you want to vote for Senator Obama, vote but don't try to rationalize it on the basis of the teachings of the Catholic Church. Don't call yourself Catholic and then try to persuade us, the readers, that the Church says one can vote for Obama based on some rationale. Senator McCain is the lessor of evil in the social issues arena and one, with an informed Catholic conscience,cannot vote for Obama rather than McCain. If you are considering a vote for Obama, read David Fredoso's book "The Case against Obama". The author has 35 pages of documentation if you want to research the info rather than believe the author. Obama is very dangerous for a traditional America. His liberal stances, Community Organizer activities (ACORN) and radical education policies that he funded courtesy of Ayers do not make him an ideal candidate for this Democratic Republic. This man of change is a go along to get along Ill Senator backed by the corrupt Chicago Daley political machine. Obama had an opportunity to make a change in Chicago but opt'd to support Daley instead.

Then there is the fallacy that making abortion illegal will somehow automatically reduce abortion.

If this were so, then Brazil, a Catholic country where abortion is outlawed would have the lowest rate of abortion, instead of one of the highest in the world.

There are much fewer abortions per capita in the United Kingdom, a Protestant nation where abortion is not only legal but also funded by the government. Of course, the U.K. also funds health care for expectant women and has generous child care benefits.

I am a practicing Catholic and I agree with former President Clinton that abortion should be safe, legal and RARE.

Pro Life is much more than anti abortion. It covers unjust wars, the death penalty, and building a climate for life. The church teaches no abortions unless the life of the mother is in jeopardy. By that standard none of the candidates are truly pro life; all support abortion for one reason or the other. Throw in death penalty, unjust war, and lack of care for those already born and the church tells us to vote according to conscience. No where does the church say that one life is anymore valuable than the next; it is our duty to pray for and speak out for those who cannot speak for themselves be they in-utero, imprisoned, or caught in an unjust war.

McCain was losing and had to dig dirt, Well, Palin and McCain it BACKFIRED...
BREAKING NEWS AT: TIME.COM.....

McCain Linked to Group in Iran-Contra Affair--

In the 1980s, McCain served on the advisory board to the U.S. chapter of an international group linked to ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America.

The council created by retired Army Maj. Gen. John Singlaub was the U.S. chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, an international organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America. After setting up the U.S. council, Singlaub served as the international leagues chairman.
The council created by retired Army Maj. Gen. John Singlaub was the U.S. chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, an international organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America. After setting up the U.S. council, Singlaub served as the international leagues chairman. Obama/Biden

Bill: Needlessly silly counterargument. 'Let he with no sin cast the first stone.' If it pleases you, I promise not to vote for Ayers, Wright, Palin's crazy (heretical) preacher who believes in witchcraft (paganism, remember?), Keating, or John McCain's former South American love interest.

We are not voting on beatification for these politicians. We are not voting on one of the 10 commandments to say it is better than others. To bring up candidates and say that religion dictates that one is better than another is false. It makes you no better than the extremists in the Middle East who kill each other in God's name.

Billy Boy
Assuming you are an American Catholic

1. "The Constitution succinctly defines presidential functions, powers, and responsibilities. The president’s chief duty is to make sure that the laws are faithfully executed...",

2. Roe vs. Wade is the law

3.Regardless of Senators' McCAin or Obama's "views" as president they MUST faithfully execute the laws...

4. A vote for either candidate is a vote for legalized and restricted abortions.

5. Catholics are aware of this paradox as was Pope John Paul II. He wrote extensively on this in many Doctrinal Notes as well as in his Encyclical Letters.

6. You should be ashamed of yourself for not understanding either the duty of the President or for neglecting to read Papal Papers.

Billy Boy
You have not cited any Church writing on the issue. Instead you put all your faith in your own lack of misrepresenting of our Faith.

Practicing Catholics actually know what a Doctrinal Note is and you sir do not even know of their existence or importance.

I never revealed my candidate preference as I only have responded to the article and to your false arguments.

Pray for me? Thanks but no thanks, Billy Boy say a Novena for all souls.

I am catholic and would NEVER vote for Obama. There are many other reasons also, but his pro-choice record is more liberal than any other democrat in congess. He voted yes for late term abortions. He was the only one to vote no to medical assistance for babies who live after a failed abortion. He supported the bill that states girls under 18 can get an abortion, and cross state lines without their parents consent.

He is not just a democrat, he is too far left with his radical and liberal positions.
He has no experience, and is untested for the crisis' that we face today.
Let's not forget the radical associations of Ayers, Jerimiah Wright, Rezko (whose about to start spilling the beans), and endorsements by Hamas, Hezbollah, and Louis Farakhan.
This guy is too scary just being a senator. He would not pass a background check for employment, why should we trust his judgement with the presidency?

green: Once again, It is not my intention to "convince" anyone about anything. I am simply stating the fact that it is against the teachings of the Catholic church for Catholics to support pro-abortion candidates. You may protest all you want, Her teachings speak much louder than you're repeated attempts to convince people otherwise. I continue to pray for you.

CATHOLICS FOR MCCAIN/PALIN '08. REAL CATHOLICS, REAL LEADERS!

Bill aka Silly Billy wrote: " and not one person today has yet to refute my statement that the Catholic church teaches against the support of such a candidate."
You are upside down sport, it is you who failed to convince a single Catholic voter to vote the way YOU want them to.

It's not just Catholics. The Matthew 25 Network has launched a website called "Pro Life/Pro Obama". Google it.

Miguy: As you bring up a war voted on in the past, let me remind you of a war started by a Barack Obama associate which resulted in the death and destruction of people in his own country. William Ayers, the Domestic Terrorist of the Weather Underground that bombed the Pentagon and New York Police headquarters can also be defined as starting an unjust war as it was not even put up to a vote. It was a war started by a very few narrow minded individuals who eventually became Barack Obama confidants, launched Barack Obama's Political career and whom Barack Obama cast aside when they became politically costly. Unjust War, Unjust Friendships.

Andrew: Nobody is telling you how to think, think away, to your hearts content. The issue is can Catholics support Pro-Abortion candidates, and not one person today has yet to refute my statement that the Catholic church teaches against the support of such a candidate.

Awesome. I was just thinking about this today.

There's more to values than dogmatic loyalty to fetuses, especially when thousands of innocents are killed collaterally by misguided warfare.

I'm socially conservative personally, but values such as poverty, the protection of innocent life of those who are already living, economic anxieties, justice.... these are all fundamental values in my eyes, and something that McCain's policies simply can not offer exemption from and if anything, will only exacerbate.

Bill, the Catholic Church also does not condone unjust wars and, ergo, the candidates who support them. The war in Iraq does not meet the standards of a "just war" by Catholic teaching as you are well aware.

Well said, Truth and Andrew.

Posted by: Bill | Oct 7, 2008 11:43:36 AM

Bill - As a Catholic man, please do not tell me how I should think! We might be of the same faith, but I do have a mind of my own too!

WISE UP AMERICANS!!

To McCain, Palin and the Republicans you are all just TERRORISTS AND COMMUNISTS if you do not hold the same beliefs that they do...

Look out if they get elected, as the only thing they will shake-up in Washington if they get elected is your rights!!!

Welcome to a Republican administration that will be even more secretive and evil that Bush/Cheney could have ever hoped to be...

Welcome to the Palin/McCain NEOCON POLICE STATE!!! Where you will be branded a communist and a terrorist if you do not agree with their right wing-nut evangelical views!!!

Vote for smart, educated and inclusive leaders this time! Vote for OBAMA/BIDEN '08!!!!

Please you "Joe Six-Pack" people, let's not elect the DUMMIES again!!!!

I'm Catholic, and I completely agree with Mr. Cafardi. His reasonings make complete sense. McCain will not be able to get anything changed on abortion, and there are a lot of other important issues on the table as well. I am for the greater good of the nation, and can't just vote for someone simply because he is pro-life, eventhough I disagree with almost the rest of his policies.

To Bill: can you also be Catholic and use a Microsoft Windows computer? According to pro-life sites Cogforlife and ProLifePC, Microsoft has contributed a great deal of money to Planned Parenthood. What about AB beer? Can you be Catholic and drink that, when AB has been a supporter of PP? And finally, how can one vote for John McCain when he has a personal stake in AB?

green: Thats what you do. Cafeteria Catholics, read what suits you, interpert it to fit your desires and run with it, I understand. The only problem is it's wrong. Please continue to attack me at a personal level, it does not change the Church's teachings that Catholics cannot support Pro-Abortion candidates.

It is endlessly disturbing, but not surprising, that people rely on outdated, plagiarized, discredited texts (a few in particular; I'm talking to you old testament, new testament, and koran) and those (costumed and otherwise)who "interpret" them rather than exercising their own judgment on issues of importance to them.

Just happend Today...Democrat Ed Schultz raido talk show host from 820am WCPT in Chicago Just called Sarah Palin a "Political Whore"....

I am so offend..

Bill, leave Blip out of this. And no one called you any names. You falsely claim the Holy Father made certain statements which you misrepresent.
His Doctrinal Note...I urged you to read what He wrote yet you failed to...
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH

DOCTRINAL NOTE
on some questions regarding
The Participation of Catholics in Political Life

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, having received the opinion of the Pontifical Council for the Laity, has decided that it would be appropriate to publish the present Doctrinal Note on some questions regarding the participation of Catholics in political life. This Note is directed to the Bishops of the Catholic Church and, in a particular way, to Catholic politicians and all lay members of the faithful called to participate in the political life of democratic societies.

You are ill-informed...which leads only to forming your own opinions in spite of the facts.

TO ALL OF YOU OBAMA SUPPORTERS:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT BEING LEFT OR RIGHT, THIS IS ABOUT BEING CATHOLIC. THERE ARE CERTAIN ISSUES WITHIN THE CATHOLIC TEACHINGS THAT ARE NON NEGOTIABLE. OBAMA IS AN ADVOCATE/SUPPORTER OF PLANNED PARENTHOOD, A SUPPORTER OF ABORTION INCLUDING PARITAL BIRTH ABORTION OF FULL TERM INFANTS AND SUBSEQUENTLY VOTED AGAINST PROVIDING LIFE SAVING HEALTH CARE FOR INFANTS WHO SURVIVED THE BLOTCHED ABORTION RESULTING IN INFANTICIDE. CLEARLY THESE ARE NOT TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. BEING CATHOLIC IS HARD IN THESE TIMES. I AM NOT SURE WHEN IT BECAME EN VOGUE TO COMPROMISE YOUR MORALS AND VALUES TO BE DEEMED "IN TOUCH." I WILL VOTE A TICKET THAT PROMOTES PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY AND PRO LIFE BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Mr. Green Jeans: Blip blatanly misrepresents the facts in his posts and you resort to inuendo and name calling. Aside from those traits not following in the footsteps of Christ, neither of you have discussed, truthfully, the Church and it's stance on why it does not support pro-abortion candidates and how it teaches it flock against same. I will pray for you both.

Bill;
The Faithful chant Gregorian not barbarian. Catholics are not of one mind only of one Church.
Not a single professed Catholic wrote in support or condone abortion, none that I could find. You are prone to "miss" characterizing not only the Holy See but all that you see through very narrow eyes.
Abortion is a sin as is judging or placing words in the mouths of others Mister Bill.

blip: You are Wrong again. Obama's quote was "But, if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a Baby." That quote is available on You-Tube. What little credibility you had just went out the window.

Sarah Palin is for "state's rights." That sounds a whole lot like being pro-choice. So why can pro-life Catholics support her?

It is so interesting that some nearly anonymous poster with a partial understanding of Catholic Social Teaching would question the loyalty of someone like Doug Kmiec.

Kmiec has given his entire life to the protection of the unborn.

Bill, I am not saying abortion is OK. I fight it how I can.

Bill,

Obama's "punishment" comment was in reference to the availability of sex education in schools.

He was saying he would want his daughters to know how to avoid getting pregnant if they decided to have sex. He was criticizing the popular view that pregnancy is the punishment for immorality (and, to his discredit, repeated this idea in his argument). I know many people who think that things like Venereal Disease, Pregnancy, and the challenges of single motherhood are a punishment from God for immorality.

Now as someone who abstained from sex while I waited for marriage... I take exception to Obama's idea. I would discourage my own children from having sex in the first place.

But if you are saying that using contraceptives or having sex outside of marriage makes it immoral to support them... well... what does this say about McCain. As far as I know, Obama hasn't had sex outside of his marriage... and it is his business. As far as I know, he is teaching his daughters to wait for marriage, too.

Now, McCain has had an extramarital affair. This is well known, but undiscussed by the guardians of public purity. And, his running mate was not able to prevent her own child from having sex outside of marriage, in spite of very strict stated views on the matter....

So I really think this isn't much of a point.

When I see people agreeing with each over over these boards, saying "yes, your right about the Church and Abortion's OK" I'm reminded of another very similar chant. "Give Us Barrabbas!"

Posted by: Manolete
re: Country and God First!
Catholics for John McCain and Sarah palin

Your god, not mine.....

Blip:
You are very much welcome, by the looks of things you need no support from me or any other in regards to the discussion.
Sadly even our brothers and sisters over-simplify Church teachings and dogma into bumper sticker slogans. It is one thing to see the dumbing of America it is quite another to see our brothers and sisters in Christ ignore the depth of our Lord and of our Mother, The Church.
To your missive, legislating morality is a fool's folly. If morality could be legislated we would exist only as a church/state. Sadly our brothers and sisters wish for that which is not in God's Plan, the destruction of free thought, free will and free choice. All of which form the foundation of our great country.
You are what is best in a Catholic, inquisitive yet fact-based. May the Lord be with you.

blip: If you no a document that spells it out for you like that, you are not as intelligent as your brothers are making you out to be. And I realize you are smarter than that. When Barack Obama says he does not want his girls "punished" with a mistake, you actually can turn around, as a supposed catholic and say he will do the most to limit abortions, hardly. What does the word "respect" mean to you? Have you read the Pontiff's teachings regarding abortion? I could post them here but that would be to easy. It is not good enough to "vote catholic", as you say which is tantamount to voting secular "feel good". I'm extremely comfortable keeping government out of my religion while letting the creator guide my principles when voting for secular leadership as is His wish.

By the way, Mr. Green Jeans.... thanks for the support.

I get so angry when people try to bend that Catholic Church to serve short-sighted secular purposes.

I would never tell someone that AS A CATHOLIC, they are required to support a particular candidate.

Such thinking is a recipe for manipulation and deception. Catholics must be savvy and dynamic in pursuit of the good policies which promote the dignity of the human person. Sure, these changes have to happen at a federal level.... but they also have to happen at the very personal level.

While a law might protect a baby, what can a law do for the soul of a poor, single mother who comes to the tragic conclusion that she wishes the life within her could be destroyed.

How did we become a society which sees human life as a threat and a curse, something to fear, rather than to celebrate.

Too many people live in fear. Can you imagine having no job, no help, and asking yourself whether or not your child is better off dead?

This is an absolute shame of our society. Simply passing a law is not going to change this. The culture itself must be transformed. We, as a society, must restore dignity and hope to the mother, so that she will see her child as a blessing.

The crude, pro-life/pro-choice dichtomy that springs up every time an election rolls around misses the point completely.

Bill,
Where does it say that a Catholic cannot vote for a "pro-choice" candidate?

There is no official church document which ever says a person should "Vote for a pro-choice candidate", because all of the church writings on the topic says that Catholics must look at the range of pro-life issues and choose the candidate that is most likely to protect life.

The only thing I have ever read is that you cannot intentionally promote abortion. And, indeed, are called to actively oppose it.

Now, how you support and oppose abortion are matters of conscience and must be informed by Church teaching, history, and common sense. Simply saying "I am pro-life" does not mean that it is OK to vote for that candidate. If you can reasonably assume that the "pro-life" candidate is going to promote policies which will not honor human life.... voting for this candidate is foolish and dishonest.

Now, you might have reasonable disagreements with me over who is more likely to promote a pro-life agenda... and that is fine.

But I am telling you that I firmly believe that Obama is going to do the most to protect human life. I opposed Bill Clinton, but when I compared the actual outcomes of Clinton Policies to those of Reagan and Bush, Clitnon, shockingly, did more to protect human life than either Republican candidate.

Now perhaps McCain will be different. But I doubt it. Someone who jokes about "exterminating" North Koreans and bombing Iranians, military and civilian alike, does not have the appropriate view of human life to be trusted to protect it. And when his wife is assuring women that McCain won't touch Roe v. Wade... you have to wonder if McCain is going to be another Bush.

A recent conversation I had with Fr. Frank Pavone, basically reaffirmed this position.

If you want to really "vote catholic"... I would encourage you to read the USCCB's "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship." It is a good document and covers all the bases. Nothing in it says that one cannot vote for a pro-choice politician. The focus is on promoting pro-life causes to the best of your ability and in conformity with the dictates of your conscience.

Peace!

Jeanie, don't tell me I'm wrong. This is how I feel and I am not alone. Yes, I am a catholic but I do have a mind of my own and can disagree where I see fit.

Bill:
This is what the Holy Father concluded:
"V. Conclusion

9. The principles contained in the present Note are intended to shed light on one of the most important aspects of the unity of Christian life: coherence between faith and life, Gospel and culture, as recalled by the Second Vatican Council. The Council exhorted Christians «to fulfill their duties faithfully in the spirit of the Gospel. It is a mistake to think that, because we have here no lasting city, but seek the city which is to come, we are entitled to shirk our earthly responsibilities; this is to forget that by our faith we are bound all the more to fulfill these responsibilities according to the vocation of each... May Christians...be proud of the opportunity to carry out their earthly activity in such a way as to integrate human, domestic, professional, scientific and technical enterprises with religious values, under whose supreme direction all things are ordered to the glory of God».[31]"

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, in the Audience of November 21, 2002, approved the present Note, adopted in the Plenary Session of this Congregation, and ordered its publication.

Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, November 24, 2002, the Solemnity of Christ the King.

annie: I respectfully disagree with your opinion on women priests but understand why many people believe the time has come, but that is not the issue at hand. In this race, concerning women, when it comes to equal pay, John McCain is paying his female employees a wage equal to or greater than their male counterparts. That is not the case in the Obama campaign were women are being paid less.

Annie said: Bill, I am catholic. Although I don't support abortion, I would never want it to be illegal either. I do believe in choice.

Wrong! This is why Pelosi, and Biden were both called to the offices of their diocese bishops. Because of their outspoken stance on being pro choice, and I don't think their respective Bishops agreed with either of them.

mister bill;
those are not the words of the late The Holy See, those words are yours as you thought you heard the Holy Father.
I am a Catholic, a physician, 59 years old and trained/educated by Jesuits. Read the excellent post by one named Blip, ponder it instead of recalibrating the words of others. Show more respect for the Holy Father by reading his writings on the poor, the Iraq War, the death penalty and Mother Earth.

bill, there are a lot of catholics that think the way I do. I also believe that women should be allowed to become priests. I don't base my political decisions on religion. We can't afford to do that.

A few will vote for Obama, just like a few blacks will vote for McCain.

Mr Green Jeans: The words are not mine that explain why Catholics cannot support candidates such as Obama, they come from Pope John Paul II and those before him, not me. You may attack me, that is fine, but if you are truley a Catholic you know that the Pope is infallable when it comes to matters of faith and morals regarding the Church's teachings. So, again, No Catholic can support a Politician who is an Abortion Proponent. That's just the way it is, not the way I want it to be.

Blip:
You are well-versed and well-read in the ways of our Church. As a Jesuit-trained physician I commend you for framing the discussion in a manner befitting a learned person.
God Bless

I spend over a year of my life working for a Catholic parish. My current list of friends overwhelmingly consists of priests, nuns, theologians, and lay ministers.

We talk about abortion all the time. I would say that 90% of these people are absolutely pro-life. We talk about the catechism, read the papal documents, the works of theologians, etc.

I am a subscriber and member of the Human Life Review. I am an active pro-life letter writer. My wife and I are expecting are third child after 5 years of marriage. We promote and encourage NFP in our parish.

So I AM absolutely a pro-lifer. And I can say it with absolute certainty...

BILL IS MISREPRESENTING CHURCH TEACHING.

Blip: A disagreement, how suprising. please show me the Catholic teaching that lays out how Catholics can support a candidate such as Barack Obama and his positions. you cannot. You draw up a hypothethital with no basis in fact. I would suggest you remain based in reality. God Bless you.

Bill wrote: " You cannot be Catholic and support Abortion or politicians who are Abortion proponents."
A false argument Mr.Bill. First of you do not speak for the Church nor do you cite any authority granted you to do so. Secondly your use of the words "support" and "proponents" are not applicable. Third, no man should opine on a a woman's health and well-being.

Bill... you are wrong.

Non-defensive wars of choice are the same things as abortions in my mind.

The only difference is that when you have a war, the country responds by writing songs about it, having parades, and making triumphant movies about how glorious it is.

At least women who abortions don't brag about it. They usually just go home and have a nervous breakdown.

annie: - You ignore the stories headline. Can a Catholic support a Pro-Abortion candidate? Catholic teaching is perfectly clear, no ambiguity whatsoever, we cannot.