Political Punch

well we are all screwed now...congratulations America, you really did it this time...i think im gonna cry..

Anyone who thinks people making more than 250K a year as a couple are rich is not thinking. This tax increase affects every engineering couples, every professionals who have about 10 years of professional experience, and everyone who tries so hard to open a small business or two will be punished. There is no point of working so hard anymore. Obama plan is the Communist plan, and million of people like us risked our lives running away by boats to come to the US now face the same communist government.

I left Vietnam 13 years ago with $50 from the money I sold my house for. I worked so hard, lived in a basement with a family of 4, earned my BS, then MS. I am now simply punished by Obama.

People work very hard to make that amount. You tax them high and they won't be motivated to work as hard. No new ideas or opportunities will come from them. And we all will suffer. We will be just like another France or China.

There is hope yet based on the number of people that used their minds to look behind those spreading misinformation hoping the ignorant would listen. The problem is, such tactics get old after a while and people see them for what they are. What is amazing in all of this is that the tax rate Mr. Obama mentioned to Joe the Plumber was a return to a tax rate that was in place during the Clinton years, not some wild out of whack tax on people struggling to get by. People talk of those who do not pay taxes in our nation, yet they somehow fail to also include at what income level those people are or how anyone that makes below the cut-off for incomes for paying taxes can put food on the table and a roof over their head, much less pay taxes, the idea is to help some of those people step over the threshold to BECOME tax payers and get people like John McCain who can’t even remember how many properties he and his wife own to help with that task, instead of investing it in cheaper Indian and Chinese labor forces and the Indian and Chinese economies where those paychecks will be spent. All the wealthy in the world could not support all the economies in the world because that would mean they would have to buy 100’s of items to make up for the larger populations that are keeping businesses in business, not by buying luxury homes and jewelry, but by buying mass quantities of goods and services, even at relatively low cost. Stimulus packages are fine for a quick jumpstart, IF the fundamentals (all the indicators of an economy, not just labor) are okay, they don’t work if the fundamentals are hurting, which ours have been. It goes back to the “give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime” mentality. We need to teach people to fish. I think Obama will do that. On the opposite coin, given free rein, we have seen what people like the AIG executives will do with such responsibility, treat themselves to a nearly half million dollar several day retreat AFTER being bailed out for their failures. Is it any wonder the pirates have been desperate to keep from having limitations put on their pirating? In addition, when both Reagan and G.H.W. Bush had to end up raising taxes and each having recessions during their terms, how can one argue that tax cuts work more often than they do not? Is someone going to try to suggest our current economy is in good shape as the result of tax cuts? Left to their own devises, people will take the money and run, not invest it the way it needs to be invested to stimulate the economy. Tax cuts don't and won't work if you expand spending beyond revenue collections and for them to work, they need to generate enough to offset the spending and expansion of the National Debt, of which interest and finances on that debt have become the third largest expense in the budget. So-called "conservatives" haven't been conservative, except perhaps of their own personal greed. We need a return to the Theodore Roosevelt and Eisenhower type of conservatism, one that looks at the greater good for the nation and the world, not just the greater good of me,me, me. People might do well to study the causes of the Great Depression. Mr. Obama has huge challenges in front of him, but he is an intelligent man and is likely to include intelligent people from all parties to help him work on solutions for the problems facing our nation. It is naïve to believe that there will not have to be sacrifice to solve our problems, from all people. It is also naïve to believe Barack Obama and his administration are going to represent perfection any more than others might have, but he has been elected based in large part because of his principles and direction and to many his ability to think and be in touch with the American people more so than those who cannot remember how many properties they and their wife own.

I study Psychology and my main focus was on the 3% Tax increase initiated by Senator Obama. I only focused on that very aspect of Senator Obama in a Family Oriented analysis. I study Psychology and truthfully can tell you; That unfortunately so many people in this Country and beyond crave money over emotions. I knowingly believe what will fix this economy. That is ethics, humanity and compassion towards others. The money that leaves our hands is then intrusted in others. They must exercise these human emotions. My advise is ... Go to different sites that are not Presidentially funded, Democrat nor Republican. Again my study was on Senator Obama's tax increase and how it will effect Families. The "Family Clause"... I entitled it. I don't want to decide your vote, so please research all Senator Mccaiin and Obama's proposals and what educated economic opinions are offered. God bless you and whomever you may VOTE for.

Senator Obama just stated that he wants to bankrupt all Coal companies and that under him our electic bills will go super high compared to where they are now. This he said will force them to produce clean energy??? What about everyone who is going to die freezing due to this garbage he and the democrats (who are all in Bill Ayers) back pocket planning this COMMUNIST TAKEOVER! Think this is baloney - start doing a search about their relationship and the book Bill Ayers wrote Prarie Fire how to seize power from the inside of the United States and make it communist. How they will re-educate some and exterminate those who will not conform. Obama is not a U.S. Democratic Senator - a vote for him is for Bill Ayers so they can CHANGE THE COUNTRY - And these are real facts you can BELIEVE in - read up then vote to SAVE YOUR FREEDOM BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE TO GO BACK TO WHAT YOU LOVED - America the home of the Free!

Remember that all that went before you blazed the trail for as far as they went. They gutted it out to become a success, and so can you! Don't look to the government for your welfare because when you do then the government gets to dictate how you will live you life to pay back the state!

Don't give up control of your freedom for a handout!

Three planks from the Communist Manifesto are:

1- A graduated tax system, to make it difficult to amass any wealth so as to mire the worker in a state of perpetual labor for the state. (already done!)

2- Abolition of private property rights. (Already in progress under the cloak of environmentalism)

3- Abolition of private gun ownership. (this is to prevent the citizens from rising up against an unpopular goverment, the Bolsheviks remembered how they overthrew the Czar)

"If a Nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be...
if we are to guard against ignorance and remain free, it is the responsibility of every American to be informed."
- Thomas Jefferson

"It is a precedent fraught with danger for the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it and no security for the people...... the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred and rigidly observed in all its provisions."
-- Colonel David Crockett -- A.K.A. Davy Crockett --Member of the U.S. Congress 1827-31 & 1832-35 –

I have a lot of black friends and they know what a racial divide Obama has caused in the name of making himself President! Think people - he supports Planned Parenthood - they abort mostly innocent black unborn children (genocide under the geise of helping?) He supports Welfare not education for blacks - he's not compasionate because his own Aunt and 1/2 brother both live in poverty. He pulls on the heart strings of the poor, the angry and was part of this nations financial crises (by supporting mortgages Acorn pushed for) to people who could not afford them. These facts add up to the writings in Ayers, praire fire, how to take over the U.S.A. Do your homework and then decide who does Obama really care about, the poor - I think he is part of something much bigger something not even the poorest human wants to be opressed by!

The Ford assembly plant in Wixom Michigan used to be the largest auto assembly plant in the world. There were 4 shifts employing over 250 thousand employees; now a ghost town - closed. Our stupid Democratic Govenor said, if she was re-elected we would all be blown away, she was right! They closed months later stating that their plea's to get help to stay here with tax help were ignored until they actually started moving - (too late)! They went south of the border and elsewhere because Taxes in Michigan drove them out! Obama/higher taxes = more jobs lost and a welfare check (temporarilly) for all of you who he claims to care so much about! If he and Rev Wright are so passionate to help the poor - I want to see them sell their million dollar homes before the election and spread their own wealth around rather than confiscate the retirment plans of all americans to fund social security and spread the wealth to lazy people who never worked a day in their life! This has nothing to do with Obama and his insulting crap about - his peanut butter sandwhich and being a kindergartner - socialism /communisism will make him a dictator and no one will ever rise above poverty level again. The rich stay rich and everyone else stays EQUALLY POOR - documented by thousands of people in those countries do a search and you will see!

Just tryed to give you folks some links of information to judge for yourself about Obama, the Dems intentions for confiscating your 401k's and Ayers information and I got a response saying my information was spam and being reviewed - another words freedom of speech has been snuffed and they are giving you only what they want you to hear and read. These people have an agenda get out their and vote McCain!

If Obama believes so strongly that spreading the wealth will make America better, why doesn't he spread his own campaign wealth with McCain? Instead of sticking to the original promise of campaign funding, he's set all new records including millions on his own 30 minute infomercial. If anyone is naive enough to believe that Obama wants to just "split his peanutbutter and jelly sandwich" with his classmate, then ask yourself why he's only interested in spreading other peoples' wealth around? And how do you think he's going to spread that around? The government has to take it all in order to spread it and that means THEY decide where it goes? Is that what you want? That's not America. If you feel inclined to spread wealth around then do it yourself, don't rely on the government to make that decision. Afterall, who has enough faith in the government's decision-making to give them control of all our wealth and health care choices? I certainly don't.

Obama is a facade and a lie of unrealistic ideologies. Don't be a fool and buy into promises that can't be delivered.

How many of us here are even going to make $250,000 a year? Few to none. So why in the heck are you all worried about the tax on the rich? The large majority of Americans will never make that much.

The problem with the rich in this country now is that they will not give jobs to people in this country, they just pack their factories and ship them to China or India. Yes, they will generate more for the shareholders, but what about us who want to work and work hard and earn a decent living. Now you made your money and you are rich and you can make your money in whatever way you want, including producing at the lowest cost at the expense of jobs in this country. I suggest tax hike for those companies which outsource jobs overseas. We need that money to support our local economy and create jobs for people in this country.

More than 30 percent pay nothing in federal income taxes. Obama comes up with this number by calling tax credits "tax cuts." One can debate whether these things are good or bad, but they are not tax cuts. McCain offers refundable tax credits for health care, as well as other credits, but he doesn't insult the intelligence of the American people by calling them "tax cuts." When Obama's credits go to people who pay no federal income taxes or who pay less than the value of the credit, they are not "tax cuts." They are transfers of money from one pocket to another, or redistributions of wealth, but they are not tax cuts.

Hiking taxes on the so-called rich affects us all. The so called rich face a tax rate of 39.5 percent plus increased Social Security taxes, on top of higher taxes for capital gains and dividends.

President Kennedy said, "The soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the (tax) rates now." When Kennedy says it, it's Camelot. When Reagan says it, it's trickledown. By the way, Kennedy cut taxes by 22 percent (reducing the top marginal rate from 90 percent to 70 percent), and Reagan by 60 percent (top marginal rate from 70 percent to 28 percent). The "unfair, pro-rich" Bush tax cuts that are set to expire? A reduction in the top marginal rate of approximately 7.5 percent. A recent headline in Agence France-Presse says it all: "Sweden Announces Income Tax Cuts to Boost Jobs."

On spending, Obama now says — as with taxes — he may defer some of it because of a poor economy. But didn't he consider the spending "investments" that are "fully paid for"? If they are investments that "don't cost" anything, why put them off because of a bad economy? If Obama's been telling the truth, the ideal time to spend and to raise taxes is precisely when things are bad, unless they a) are not paid for and b) are not investments that will "jump-start our economy."

Rockgoods offers that there are more wealthy Democrats than Republicans and also suggest they are "liberals" while at the same time offering some evidence they are not as liberal with their personal gift giving as Republicans.

My question is, how are such people considered liberals and why, having larger numbers of wealthy in their ranks, would they support more tax on their "hard work" and wealth? Why would others, by contrast, not support an increase in their contribution, relative to an increase in their income derived from that society? Or is there some additional distinction that only Republican "conservatives" “work hard” and would have their wealth be subject to what the ‘non-liberal’ "liberal" Democrats would impose while providing exclusions for themselves? Affirmative Action (from another post) is applied to or only affects "hard working" Republicans? The delusions are running high and so also seem to be the delusions of grandeur about one's self important role in American society as a group or individuals.

I have yet to see a structure that hovers above the ground with no means of support or means of defiance from the forces that would pull it down. In short, if the foundations are crumbling or removed, that which sits at the top will fall to the ground. Anyone who has run or owned a business knows that it is not built from the top down, but from the ground up. One can have the best idea and concept for the most successful money maker the world has ever seen and a thousand investors knocking down the door to invest in it, but if they can’t get the functional on-the-ground operational heart of the business going because they can't find the labor or won't pay enough to attract any, they can’t deliver any product and they have zip, nada, zero for all the cash dribbling down on their shoulders from the top. The investors make nada, zip, zero and investment trade falls off. Business and societies are cooperatives of teams that make them function from the bottom to the top, from one side to the other and vice versa. They can fall apart without compromise and cooperation and they won't get off the ground or stay in business without all the components. In many small businesses, the management and ownership is also the total labor force, to grow, they have a need for more labor so they can mange or a need for management so they can labor, but their personal stake is now diluted and dependent upon others top to bottom, to work. To grow, they need all the help they can get, whether it comes from investors or in the form of uniform tax break provided by a relative increase in tax from the same people that “might” invest in the company or “might” invest in a company that hires Indian or Chinese labor, supporting the Indian or Chinese economies with those payrolls and where they are spent. For some patriotism seems to lose its attraction when cheap labor found in disparate foreign economies increases the profit margin.

There was a time when the Grand Old Party was grand and actually cared about the society they lived in as much or more than their own personal worth. When it had people who thought beyond their personal bubbles, net worth and what's-in-it-for-me attitudes.

We may be able to stand a little less me, me, me and "us" vs. them" in our attitudes in exchange for more we, we, we as in "we the people" of the UNITED States of America.

I believe the point is the threshold at which one is struggling and one is not. When the cost of relative standard of living, including rent, food, healthcare, education, etc. etc. for an average or modest lifestyle takes a certain percentage of gross income there is a relativity when gross income goes up for whatever purpose, a Democrat's or a Republican's "hard work" and based on retainign that same standard level of living. When income goes up, but achieving that average level of lifestyle stays the same, there is more disposable income. No own is forcing someone to begin to live the lifestyles of ten avergae ones, simply because they have the money to. If they can afford to to that, why can't they afford some public investment in helping others achieve the same? Our money is taken and edirected for many things in the interest of the general welfare, including infrastucture, built in many cases for defense, but used by commerce as well and those who profit from it. Yes they pay additionally for the use, but the constuctions were shared. If it takes $80,000 (arbitrary) a year to achieve a lifestyle free of huge debt burdens and worries about paying basic average or modest bills income above that level is icing on the cake and only adds, not subtracts, from that comfort. I can choose to raise my lifestyle level, maintaining a higher than avergae one, but balanced with my income, if nt my real needs or I can maintain the average, modest lifestyle and take advantage of the larger income to expenses gap. No one is ordering me to live higher off the hog, simply because I can afford it and no one is really stopping me either, with some relative increases in what I can now afford as a contribution back to the society that contributes to my larger income. In the case of Joe the Plumber, we're talking about a 3% change on the amount OVER $250,000. Do the math and tell us if that amount is going to suddenly put Joe back in the poorhouse relative to the advances he made under a lower tax rate to get to the higher one. Once again, some of my fellow Republicans seem to forget that conservative applies to lifestyle and mindset, not just presevervation of "what's mine" or net worth. Democrats also work hard and are subject to the same proposals they support, the contrast in attitudes and opinions is stark and revealing. Is Warren Buffet wrong and being greedy when he brings up the reality that his secretary pays a higher effective tax rate than he does? When did being a Republican and being greedy become synonymous?

Did you here Obama's comment about people not being taxed a 200K per year, He just dropped it from 250K What is next!?

okay Jennifer Kleinman the liberal! It is funny to read your response to pat's vignette. But I guess college would be to blame for that one.

1) your first argument: How about this person you are talking about in the lower bracket actually strive to make something for hi/her self. It is called self responsibility. She/he can use the lame system we have and get financial aid and if smart could go to a city college and make something of themselves and not have a baby before he/she could afford it. Oh but that is okay the government will help. Or will that be the tax payers.

2) This one just made me laugh because all it is is filled with envy. So what if this girl has it all is that any of your concern? Maybe her wonderful husband runs a business and employs many people which in tern make the economy grow. Maybe they give to charities and are actually good people.

How about another one
3) Bob works very hard to become a fire fighter. 9 years in fact. Testing and even coming in the top 2. Just to find out that the last test he took they have to redo because they were actually hiring women minorities and they did not pass. So test had to be made easier.
Let's go even further.. how about your house is on fire and your husband or dad is inside and the female firefighter has no strength to help him. Bet you wish fireman BOB was there.

The left would rather have everybody equal and poor than to have just a few poor.

To Howard and musicloverman- Amen to that!

As for Jeff- Charitable giving-neither Obama (until recently) nor Biden feels sufficiently neighborly or patriotic to donate as much as does the average American household: 2 percent of their adjusted gross income.

Liberal families earn about 6 percent more than conservative families, yet conservative households donate about 30 percent more to charity than do liberal households. And conservatives give more than just to their own churches and other houses of worship. Conservatives, especially religious conservatives, give far more money and donate more of their time to nonreligious charitable causes than do liberals — especially secular liberals.
In 2007, President George W. Bush and his wife had an adjusted gross income of $923,807. They paid $221,635 in taxes, and donated $165,660 to charity — or 18 percent of their income. Vice President and Mrs. Cheney, in 2007, had a taxable income of $3.04 million. And they paid $602,651 in taxes, and donated $166,547 to charity — or 5.5 percent of their income.
Barack Obama and his wife, Michelle, earned between $200,000 and $300,000 a year between 2000 and 2004, and they donated less than 1 percent to charity. When their income soared to $4.2 million in 2007, their charitable contributions went up to 5 percent.Joe and Jill Biden, by contrast, made $319,853 and gave $995 to charity in 2007, or 0.3 percent of their income. And that was during the year Biden was running for president. Over the past 10 years, the Bidens earned $2,450,042 and gave $3,690 to charity — or 0.1 percent of their income.

So let's sum up. The "compassionate" liberals — at least based on charitable giving — show less compassion than "hardhearted" conservatives. The rich pay more in income taxes than people think. Voters, clueless about the facts, want the rich to pay still more.

As the election approaches – remember the wise words of Abraham Lincoln
* You cannot help the poor, by destroying the rich.

* You cannot strengthen the weak, by weakening the strong .

* You cannot bring about prosperity, by discouraging thrift.

* You cannot lift the wage earner up, by pulling the wage payer down.

* You cannot further the brotherhood of man, by inciting class hatred.

* You cannot build character and courage, by taking away men's
initiative and independence.

* You cannot help men permanently, by doing for them what they could
and should, do for themselves.

Apparently we need to brush up on our basic economic studies. If the point here is that the rich get that way because of us (the middle class) then it is true. Let us not forget that we work for the rich, they give us jobs because we all buy their products and services, and if they have less tax burdens then they can do more business and hire more of us. The result is wealthier middle class and a stronger economy.

If a middle class man has a great idea and makes it rich because of his hard work, does that excuse his punishment of a higher tax to support us? It is bad business and it only leads to collectivism.

Working hard and getting ahead is not a Republican only trait. I am a Republican and I prefer Republicans don't lie to themselves and cheat to win. What Obama said is there for all to see. His plan will effect as many hardworking and wealthy people who support him as those who think paying 3% more when you can afford 3% more is socialism. First, they might familiarize themselves with what socialism truly is, then look up who eneded up breaking promises and raising taxes in the last 30 years. Stop being so greedy and lend a hand to people in places were you used to be just as your parents and guardians or even investors gave you a stake to get a start. The GOP has gone from being grand to being greedy. Check out McCain's hero, Theodore Roosevelt and his tax plans. Don't be so ignorant.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for taking the time to write the words down to go with the video so people can see what Obama actually said versus what is being spread around out of context with spins and twists added.

If people are still blind then they will get what they deserve, more of what's going on now.

The Woman who outlined the Democratic plan to seize all American 401 K plans - and fund the soon to fail Social Security program is an teacher from Notre Dame and Economics teacher called, Teresa Ghilarducci. In 2006 in the Montly Review Vol 58 #1 she outlines her plan now being adopted by the Democrates and promoted by radio and talk shows by her - as the best way to fix social security and to quote her - today on Rush Limbaugh Oct 28, 08 - "Spread the Wealth Around". Obama and these educational socialist are banning together to do what they think is the best thing for us all! I think they ought to mind their own business and realize that most of the books they are reading and teaching socialism with are sugar coated versions of the true dictatorships and opression that results from any socalistic take over and if this is not a BLOODLESS COUP I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS! Start passing this around before we have Obama as our first King!

Obama has also said that wealthier Americans should pay more taxes because "they can afford it."
Taxing people because they can afford it is ridiculous. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you need rich and wealthy people. Why? Because they are the ones who supply jobs. You don't have people making $42 K a year supplying jobs. By reinvesting their hard earned money back into their business allows more jobs to be created which in turn places more people on payroll. More people on payroll means more money going into the coffers of the oh so dependable US Govt.
Don't take my money because you can.

To the Patriot who called Americanwoman out on her spelling! You are right - I spelled it Coo - Webster spells it Coup! I thought that sounded more like Rev Wright's roosting chickens! But, you prevail, you got it right my spelling checker in India got it wrong! Here is the Definition: Coupdetat - a sudden, highly successful stroke or move, a quick-witted scheme or achievement, a sudden and decisive (one of Obama's favorit words with divisive) - measure in politics, esp. one effecting a change of government illegally or by force. Being that the Democrats are now Socialists - shouldn't their party have been legally declared that way - Can we force them to redeclare themselves or be pulled from the ballet?

Danielle, that would be a very poor strategy by the Dems since people of lower socioeconomic status vote at much lower rates than those of higher SES. Also, tax cuts are not the same thing as welfare, which is what it sounds like you're referring to. The women who you claim are having babies for money aren't making enough to be benefiting from tax exemptions for additional children, they are getting welfare - they are two distinct issues. I think you have valid points about public assistance but I wouldn't want to see more families living on the streets, either.

I forgot to say that Pelosi, Barney Frank, Acorn with Obama's help - promoted the messy mortgages and together blocked efforts by McCain and other Republicans to investigate what was going on - My message made 2 mistakes - I forgot to finish my sentence regarding (who caused this economic mess) and I spelled earned wrong! Otherwise - I hope people wake up - DEMOCRATES WANT TO REDISTRIBUTE ALL OF YOUR WEALTH - In Brazil they took farms and cash owned by people for generations and spread the wealth! Now they have SOCIALISM - It is knocking on AMERICA'S DOOR - and I BELIEVE FROM MY RESEARCH NOT JUST READING THE CRAP ON THE INTERNET - that OBAMA IS THE MESSINGER! VOTE FOR MCCAIN! IF YOU DON'T LIKE HIM DO IT JUST BECAUSE YOU love your Freedom!

The latest is that a Democratic Congress woman close to Obama and Pelosi has written a plan to fix social security! They want to take the 401 k's of all American's - and give back the missing money everyone lost in their 401 k's from the financial crisis, Acorn, Pelosi, Barney Frank & yes Obama (who helped Acorns part in this downturn) - then put it all in a government fund that only the gov will control and you will only get a small % of your hard earned cash each month to live on! The socialistic marxist part of this is that even people who never worked a day in their life will get the same % of you hard eared cash each month! As the woman said, so sweetly, we think this is best for everyone - WE WANT TO SPREAD THE WEALTH AROUND! They will confiscate your 401 K and other plans - and spread YOUR CASH AROUND! Bringing you down to the level of those who did nothing to support themselves! The politician who has been on the radio touting this democratic plan is Magillglia (or something similar to that) google it! I am so angry I cannot remember the name! But she was real and I just heard this today Oct 28, 08 - When McCain says, fight he must know more about this proposed BLOODLESS COO than the rest of us - this election is not just an election - it could be the end of the Opportunities that make us the United States of America!

Joe The Plant is good for the Dems - keep asking questions that Obama will reply to with clear precission and professionalism - it advances our agenda. Meanwhile, McFailin will continue to try to get us to believe that B. Hussein Obama wants to fly airplanes into our buildings. Brilliant, coming from the only candidate who has ever fought for me.
Somebody, PLEASE improve the education in our country so that candidates will not rely on scare tactics and my grandfather's (outdated and unrealistic) values!!!

What Obama try to with his tax plan is to finetune the tax bracket by making it more progressive. Any other countries in the world are also doing the same. No big deal! Just like automotive, imbalance economy needs to be tuned up. Obama seems to be a good mechanic. Lets vote for him.

By the way, I am a social worker when I could have easily gone into something more profitable, and I witness every day the horrifying unintended consequences of allowing people to become dependent on the government. Children really are born every day so that women can get more money, or they simply dont care because there are very few consequences for their irresponsibility. Think for a moment about who benefits from this cycle of dependence? The party that advocates personal responsibility and less government assistance, or the party that promises continuing and increasing amounts of governmental support in exchange for votes. The Democrats would LOSE VOTERS if there were no poor people. That's not a strong incentive to actually change anything. I know it seems mean to say "spreading the wealth" to poor people is the worst possible way to deal with this, but it is and I see the results every single day.

Everyone here is fighting over the particulars of Obama's tax plan while ignoring the fact that there is no reason to believe that Obama will do what he is saying during his campaign. Anyone recall his public financing pledge? He is the first president in decades to turn it down and has been able to garner FOUR TIMES as much money for himself than McCain could because McCain stuck with his promise. Aside from that, you liberals remember the telecom immunity act, right? How Obama promised to vote against it and then...oops..maybe he hit the wrong button in the Senate as he has claimed to have done five times in the past when his votes were poorly received.(look that one up yourself, I can hardly believe it!) This man would literally do ANYTHING to win this election. If I were an Obama supporter, I would start preparing for the inevitable moment when he is revealed as the corrupt political manueverer that he is.

Unless policies like Senator Obama's are adopted, we will be a country with no middle class--only a few rich getting hundreds of billions of dollars in bailout when they mess up the economy and the rest of us who barely make it and see our retirement savings evaporate. We'll be like a South American country with just the few who are rich and run everything and the rest of the country poor, disenfranchised, and unable to move up the economic ladder.

For a good case study of how the middle class has almost disappeared, I refer readers to look at what has happened in Argentina in the last 20-25 years.

I really do not understand people. I've read people calling Obama's policies, communist, socialist, they claim that he plans to physically reward laziness, that he will take away your freedom of speech and that under Obama, we will move into a dictatorship and he will do whatever he wants. WOW. How many of you have worked hard and still things didn't go your way? For you rich people, do you really think you got there all by yourself. You have never had anyone help you? And even if you did, is that a reason to look down upon the less fortunate members of your society. Hold, you claim to be patriotic because you want to spend your money building bombs to bomb terrorists and scare other countries, but once someone calls upon you to invest into your own fellow Americans you call him a devilish socialist? Where is the love, the brotherhood that you conservatives admire the U.S. military for. You talk how you are patriots and support the troops but are not willing to help their families? Just in case you've never checked, most of our troops don't come from your class, your kids are busy partying it up and few of them end up in military service. Rather troops come from poor and middle classes the ones you call lazy and un-American. Its time the rich people in this country acknoweldge that without the rest of us they wouldn't be rich, their business wouldn't be successful if we didn't have money and squeezing out the last penny out of us by refusing to contribute to the well being of the country will not help them eventually either. So you won't be able to buy that yatch you've always wanted. You will still keep your $500,000 mansion or above. You will still drive nicer cars than middle class Americans can ever hope to drive. You will send your kids to the best schools in the country even if you're taxed highter. But God forbid you do anything to help out those who've worked hard but are less fortunate than you. We all know that rich people aren't always the hard workers they present themselves to be. McCain graduated fifth last of his class and the only reason he got pilot was because his fathers were admirals in the navy. Are you kidding me, look at Bush, he was a terrible student, a worse businessman but he's rich and aparently a hardworking American who shouldn't pay higher taxes to help his unfortunate fellow Americans. The thing that is sad is that people who aren't rich don't see this. It is time that we think of the good of our country and not our narrow interests. Vote Obama and I promise you our country will take a million steps in the right direction. ps. if you are afraid the military will take a hit, think about how badly its doing now under a Republican president, you think he's treating our military better? Americans, let us not be fake patriots, let us actually help each other in need. Read the warrior ethos, the guiding principle of our most admired military. You shall not leave a fallen comrade behind, even if you are a much better soldier than he is. For once show your true patriotism and not just fly flags and call that patriotism.

I am 63 years old and have watched both parties keep the American people divided over Democrat or Republican plans and schemes. I don't think either one cares about our country just, getting elected again. We need politicians stong willed enough to make some tough decisions on our country that will not be poplular with either democrats or rebublicans. In my opinion these two parties represent each other and we are stuck with choosing the lesser of two evils every election. We need to wise up to their ways and find a alternate plan that represents Americans.

I think all your people should get off your gluets,and on NOV.4 get out a pen and write in RON PAUL on your ballot..

All this is about a 3% difference in tax? A rollback of the Bush cuts. Can somebody tell me where it says that non tax-paying poor will be getting cash from the weathly? (Food stamps and existing welfare progams excluded). I'm still undecided but am trying to figure out these accusations. Reading this full exchange between joe and barak leaves me suspicious of the accusations of socialism/marxism/spread the wealth philosophy. I don't see it. I see how someone could sieze on the phrase and turn it into something its not. Really, has obama ever said he'd give away mone to the middle class? Not that I have yet read. I have read he'd give us a tax cut while responsibly coving the difference by rolling back the tax cut on the wealthy. Seems okay since the tax cut on the weathly of the last 8 years hasn't yet started to trickle down. In fact is has done the opposite, the middle class gap between the wealthy has grown and average wealth of the populous is shrinking.

Frankly, I am very tired of the Republican rhetoric propagated by the McCain/Palin duo about how Obama's economic plan is a socialist plan that supposedly will negatively impact the Joe the Plumbers of our country, the $250K and more group (the wealthy). First, let's check out the real facts (see factcheck.org). According to the U.S. Small Business Administration Office of Advocacy as of 2006, there were an estimated 26.8 million small business owners, and that accounted for about 20 million "nonemployer" businesses (have no employees). So, only about 6 million actually had a payroll, a far cry from the 23 million the McCain/Palin duo keeps talking about. Also, on factcheck.org, that small group may not be impacted and actually not pay any taxes because under Obama's economic plan according to his economic policy director Jason Furman, Obama's plan would return the top two federal income-tax rates to what they were eight years ago, before Bush lowered them and would adjust the income-tax brackets to ensure that no married couple making under $250,000 or single filer making under $200,000 would pay the top rates. Further, the average income for small business owners is $233,600, so sounds like the Obama/Biden team is really looking out for Joe the Plumber and definitely for you and me.
Secondly, this leads me to ask the question, then who are the McCain/Palin duo really considering, those whose earnings are over $250k and more (the wealthy) and why is that duo not considering Joe/Josephine the Consumer too? In case they don't know who they are or care about them, they're the average Joe Blows the Obama/Biden team are fighting for, those who make less than $250K. The McCain/Palin duo wants to paint the picture that wealthy people or the Joe the Plumbers are going to be taxed higher and Obama/Biden want to spread the wealth. Well, let's look at that. How do the wealthy become wealthy? Let's see, they start a business and I guess they just become wealthy by doing just that saying they have a business and register the business name and VOILA!, their wealthy. But, we all know that's not quite how it goes. Business owners or small businesses come up with an idea to market or sell their goods and services to you and me, Joe/Josephine the Consumer. We buy Joe the Plumbers computers, food, furniture, clothes, toys, oil and gas, autos, alarm systems, banking and financial services, homes, apartments, refrigerators, other household goods, cable, cell phones, exercise equipment, medical, etc., shop at their retail stores, buy their brand name (their name) eat at their restaurants and fast food chains, and are fans of their movies, TV shows, sports, and other entertainment media and buy televisions, stereo systems, home theater systems, big screen televisions and now HDTVs to watch them on making those business owners wealthy, wealthier, and wealthier-r-r. Now, I'm not knocking any of these entrepreneurs because we all need each other, but I think we need to realize that Joe/Josephine the Consumer (you and me) are the driving force for our economy and the team who is looking out for you and me, Joe/Josephine the Consumer is the Obama/Biden team. The other thing too, won't those wealthy entrepreneurs get some of those taxes back if not all of it. When Joe/Josephine the Consumer gets that tax refund that Obama/Biden are pushing for, what do you think they are going to do with it. If I can borrow a phrase that Gov. Palin might say, betcha by golly, they will most likely turnaround and put that refund back into the economy (a stimulating boost) buying more goods and services keeping Joe the Plumber wealthy, wealthier, and wealthier-r-r. I think that's a win-win situation for everybody. As long as Joe/Josephine the Consumer buys, we keep Joe the Plumber's business doors open to keep us gainfully employed to buy more goods and services and Joe the Plumber makes more profits to invest bad or good (and hopefully Joe/Josephine the Consumer won't have to bail them out a second time). One final note, I dare to say that after Joe the Plumber's CPAs and accountants reduce his net profit before taxes down to $250K, surely, they will come up with a $1 loophole to make Joe the Plumbers taxable income no higher than $249,999 so he won't have to pay all those taxes after all, if any. So, thank you Obama/Biden for thinking about us, Joe/Josephine the Consumer, working class America, the middle and lower incomers, also known as the 95%.

Wow. I've finally gotten around to checking-out the JoeBama exchange, and am perplexed.

What baffles me is... Where the hell is the praise for Obama for having spent that much time talking to a voter so obviously opposed to his policy? And where's the outrage over McCain and Palin failing to make themselves more available to the press, let alone the public?

Obama spent SIX MINUTES with the guy, detailing his tax plan's workings, fighting through an initial interruption. The fact that Wurzelbacher doesn't like Obama's answer, that he doesn't agree with Obama's approach, does not equate to Obama being evasive -- or in Joe's later suspect wording, "tap dancing."

Show me *ANY* time that McCain has put himself out there like Obama did, spending that much time with any one voter, in an uncontrolled environment, let alone one in opposition to his positions.

The news media should be roundly criticized for not highlighting what the LA Times, at least, managed to express...

-----
LATimes: It is actually rather unusual for a presidential candidate, whose most precious commodity is each day's 1,440 minutes, to spend six of them on one possible voter ...
-----

Right off the bat someone grabs onto the idea that revenue is going to be taxed, not profit. When people say "making x amount" they are talking about PROFIT.

250k in REVENUE is not 250k in PROFITS!!!!!!!!! An extremely profitable business with 250k revenue would most likely only bring in 50k per year!!!!! Its not taxing the rich, its taxing the middle class.

Matt,
He uncaps the payroll tax, so the end tax liability rate is much higher than that $7500. How about 7.5% on that last $150K.

It's not that I want to penalize you. You've have done well all your life. I just want the people behind you have the same chance. You've done all the right things, don't drink, don’t smoke, eat right and exercise. You have two healthy kidneys. Just that there are unfortunate people need a kidney just to stay alive. We'll find a kidney recipient of your kidney. Spread your Health around. It's the right thing to do!
What, it's too extreme?
Alright, we'll spread your WEALTH around!
FOR NOW!!

BHO

For all those making claims that Obama is a socialist or that somehow socialism is communism (i.e. scare tactics):

-The Cold War is over, get a new line.
-I DON'T think it's the best government, but look at China: their economy is growing faster than anybody's. So don't say "has socialism EVER worked"
-Balancing out the tax brackets to be more even in line (like a flat tax) is NOT "spreading the wealth," "socialism," or any other term designed to scare voters with the backbone of a child.

Obama's first, second, and third priority is to get elected. If that means pandering to large numbers of unemployed, under employed, those on welfare, illegal aliens, and malcontents, he'll be happy to throw them a few crumbs as a way to get their votes. He will also turn democracy and capitalism on it's head, and villainize the affluent and successful in our society, in order to rally the masses behind him. With evangelical zeal Obama will convince his followers to replace reason with hope and belief ... to blindly follow him ... never challenge him ... and embrace his words as gospel. In the real, and unforgiving world of economics however, when you immediately gratify everyone by feasting on the goose that lays the golden eggs, the economy looses it's ability to continue generating growth and wealth. Obama is promising everyone a piece of the pie, whether they helped bake it, or not ... but, only in a socialistic, or communist state do the non-contributors demand to share equally in the property that belongs to others. Immediate gratification is like a drug to the malcontents, but in the big picture, every farmer knows that you never eat your seed crop. If Obama gets elected, America will turn into a third world country, with massive government welfare programs, unable to generate jobs for it's citizens, and unable to compete in the global markets. Keep America safe, free and strong ... elect McCain/Palin on November 4th.

To Pat:

It's funny to read your little vignette because this it is the exact story my Grandfather sent me when I was in college and began leaning toward more Democratic views. Unfortunately, it's a flawed argument for a two reasons:

1) This argument bases income equality on the idea that those who make less are lazy ("skipping class") and not working hard ("not studying"). Now I realize that the majority of people who live in the upper income bracket have worked very hard to get there-- I don't dispute the effort it takes to get a solid education, find a great job, and work your way up the corporate ladder (or whatever other type of ladder, for that matter). Unfortunately, people in the lower income brackets are working just as hard for their measly earnings. For instance, there are those who never could afford college and consequently are limited to lower paying jobs that only require a high school degree. Let's extend this further and say perhaps they have a family to support and have only one working parent because they cannot afford childcare. This man or woman may have to take two, even three, jobs to provide a decent life for his/her family. Is this laziness or an aversion to hard work?

2) On the flip side of point #1, this vignette also makes the supposition that those make more money have earned it by working harder than their lazy, poor counterparts. In response to this assumption, I have another little story, this time about someone I know personally-- let's call her Sally. Sally was born to wealthy parents and grew up in an affluent suburb. In order to give her the best education, Sally's parents sent her to an expensive private school, where unfortunately she goofed off and floundered academically. Despite her poor grades, the school's good reputation and her parents money succeeded in getting Sally into a reputable liberal arts college. Just like in high school, Sally didn't work very hard but still got by. She graduated, though not with any honors, and got a job in a company run by one of her father's business associates. She met a nice man there, they married, and now she stays at home with her children. They live in the same affluent suburb as her parents, and they and all their country club friends talk about how tax breaks for the poor/middle-class are government handouts to people who have never worked hard enough. Now what has Sally ever done to earn the lifestyle that allows her to have these discussions at a country club in an affluent suburb? She was born to a wealthy family, and that's about it.

I know many readers are hostile to the arguments I've just made, but don't we all know a few Sallys? I know many. Just some food for thought...

Liberal Sally went off to school and made it clear to her new friends that she was ashamed of her father's political view (he was a capitalist who believed creating wealth was the proper means for increasing one's standard of living). While she disagreed with her father's political/economic views, she still very much loved him and called him from time to time to keep him posted on her grades. One day she called him pleased as could be at her straight A grades for the first sememster. Dad asked Sally how her roommate Cindy faired in the first semester. Sally explained that Cindy skipped class from time to time and did not study as much. Sally was worried Cindy might lose her scholarship due to her less than stellar 2.0 GPA. Then Dad had an idea. "Why don't you go down to the Dean of Student's office and let them know you have a 4.0 and are more than willing to subtract one of your grade points to give to Cindy?" "That way its fair, you spread the "wealth" and Cindy gets to stay in school?" How do we all feel about that?

More Trickle-Down Economics will NOT work. More corporate tax breaks
and deregulation mean executives are paid millions of dollars, jobs are
outsourced and creditors become loan sharks!

Re-Unite and Rebuild!

Focus on Rebuilding Infrastructure, both physical and human.

The Physical Infrastructure that supports a society, such as roads,
bridges, water supply, waste water, power grids, flood management,
communications, etc.

The Human Infrastructure that supports and makes possible the American
Way of Life: The Middle Class, The Working Class... The Middle Income!

Who will...

1) Stop job outsourcing?
2) Bring outsourced jobs back?
3) Make quality education and job training available to all citizens?
4) Make quality health care available to all citizens?
5) Promote, support and protect small business growth?
6) Protect consumers from banking, lending and credit bureau abuse?
7) Protect the Constitutional rights of all citizens?

Re-Unite and Rebuild!

"Let's assume that the 50% tax credit means that I get back 50% of my healthcare costs which would be around $3,000 because I have a high deductible plan and my annual healthcare costs in a good year are about $6,000. But I have to pay another 3% in income tax which if I make the minimum of $250,000 will be $7,500. Thanks, but no thanks, Obama. You really are not motivating me to work hard and at the same time you are not motivating the people I am spreading my hard earned wealth to to work harder.

Posted by: CM | Oct 14, 2008 1:09:50 PM"

Seriously, does anyone here trying to make an argument actually understand the MOST BASIC aspects of the United State's tax code (both currently and under Obama's plan)???

For all of you who plan on making $249,999 if Obama get elected and then taking the rest of the year off so you don't get hit with an extra $7500 in taxes...YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. The tax increase Obama is proposing ONLY AFFECTS the PORTION of your income OVER $250,000.

As he said himself (in the article you obviously didn't read): "if your revenue is above 250 – then from 250 down, your taxes are going to stay the same. It is true that from 250 up – from 250 – 300 or so, so for that additional amount, you’d go from 36 to 39%"

NO ONE is going to be paying an extra $7500 in taxes on the first $250,000 you make each year. You would ONLY be paying the extra 3% tax increase on whatever amount OVER $250K you make.

If you don't understand what you're talking about, you should at least read the article you're posting a reply to so you might look a little less silly.

OK- one more time noobomaanytime.... Obama just answered a question. McCain made Joe a media specticle. And he continues to do so, and Joe continues to feed it by going on FOX news. He's only a victim of McCain the republicans and himself. Obama answered the question and walked away. It's another example of how McCain has lost all the principles I use to respect in him every time he brings it up.

To Jack Nixon.

Yeah? Tell Shawn that and see what happens.