Political Punch

Joe the plumber is a bigot and a racist - just like the VP-wannabe that he appears to have a crush on. Add to the mix the likes of Gordon Liddy - who, having hosted fundraisers in his home for John McCain - who, despite his public advocacy of violence against the US government - is someone that McCain shares a warped worldview. What you get is a dangerous possibility of right wing born again whackos subverting the US constitution and democracy and turning the US into a theocracy that dances to the tunes of crazies like Pat Robertson.

ABC must want Obama to win, or else they wouldn't be focusing on this intellectually challenged citizen.

A series of articles from 2003, called “Crisis in the Koreas” (MSNBC) describes human rights abuses in North Korea and interviews both North Koreans I spoke of earlier.

“There's too many questions with Barack Obama and his loyalty to our country. And I question that greatly."

There are a great many questions on Sen. Obama’s views on democracy and capitalism, but Democrats have put looking at their political beliefs off-limits because of how vulnerable they’ve been for so many years if viewed as “liberal.” While Fox, Rush and the conservative base get discussed, mocked and characterized as radical, the liberal base has for the most part been off-limits and off the radar. Hollywood is probably the only part of it that’s open to scrutiny because it’s so visible.

And Americans need to remind themselves what Marxism, communism and socialism are. They represent the loss of our freedoms, to the point of living under a one-party dictatorship. That we live in a country that protects us from the government shouldn’t be underappreciated. Communist North Korea is one of the worst dictatorships in the world. Recently I read an account of a North Korean woman, Soon Ok Lee, who was unjustly imprisoned. She had a good government job, but was arrested for not getting an official the clothing material he wanted, something that wasn’t uncommon. She never saw her husband again or even learned what happened to him. She was tortured for a long time before she finally confessed. In prison, atrocities were the norm. There were prisoners executed by having the thousands of other prisoners all walk over them. Others were executed just for sport. People were tortured just for laughing, or not being able to memorize Kim Il-Sung’s speech. This woman shared an infirmary cell with a former school principal who’d had red-hot stones placed on her legs to see if she really couldn’t feel anything. Her wounds weren’t treated and maggots got in them. The principal died; she’d been imprisoned for expressing concern for her students’ education. A mother found out her son had also been imprisoned when all the prisoners were called outside for an execution and she saw it was her own son who was to be shot. Prisoners worked as slave labor on little sleep and food and under brutal conditions. They could be brutally punished just for making even the smallest mistake. And when punished, they were made to say they’d betrayed the great care of Kim Il-Sung for them. This former prisoner also tells of a little North Korean girl whose uncle visited from American; she was taught to say to him: “My father is Kim Il-Sung, and my mother is the government.” There are not many of these accounts from former North Korean prisoners, but another one I’ve heard of, the Aquariums of Pyongyang, also tells of similar atrocities. The author was put in a prison camp with his family as a boy and tells of events such as at the “school” the imprisoned children attended, where nothing was taught, a teacher threw a child who spoke out of turn in a septic tank, which killed him.

Al Gore once made an interesting remark on his service in Vietnam, where he was a military journalist during the war: “I didn't change my conclusions about the war being a terrible mistake, but it struck me that opponents to the war, including myself, really did not take into account the fact that there were an awful lot of South Vietnamese who desperately wanted to hang on to what they called freedom. Coming face to face with those sentiments expressed by people who did the laundry and ran the restaurants and worked in the fields was something I was naively unprepared for,” (“More Al Gore on Homeland Security,” Issues 2000).

What sort of freedom do the people of Vietnam have today under communism? Some have been put in prison for years just for things like speaking out against the government on the Internet or practicing their faith. Last month, the government cracked down on Catholic protesters (“Vietnam: End Crackdown on Catholics,” Human Rights Watch). When the Chinese set up a “protest zone” during the Olympics, it was empty. That’s what communism brings.

Why do you Americans always find fault with people who try to do some good.Joe is not a bad person and is only trying to help people who are either afraid or cannot do this themselves. Your elections are almost as crazy as ours, except our elections are just dull and boring. On our last election last month I think half the people of Canada voted.It is very important to us what is happening to you. We are back to back with you. We pray that you people make the right choice for all of us. You seem to forget that the whole world is watching. McCain is not a bad person and neither is Sarah nor Obama. But only one will be voted to lead your great country we pray the right one. Just my opinion from Canada.....

Ah, Joe, Joe. It's really hard to know just what he is. To call him an idiot or a moron would be a compliment and an offense to the unfortunate souls that are. But he could be a real american soon. If Obama wins, Joe could go on national TV and reject any tax cut that his unamerican president might want to give to all $30,000 a year aspiring assistant plumbers.

Joe said:No rational conversation, no discussion of the issues, just hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.

So to expose my hate , you bring up what someone else said , that is not even logical in any way. POINT OUT WHAT I SAID that was hatefull.

Thanks for still not addressing most of what I said. I guess when you don't have anything to say all you can do this what you.

"You didn't say "does not pay his taxes" you said he was a tax evader. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate."

More lies from your camp, can you show me where I said we was an tax evader... but still he does not pay his taxes, I guess broken the law is ok for your camp.

----

Oh my gosh. You're kidding right? Kat said it word for word, right here in the blog, and it's obvious that's what I was referring to. I even said as much in my post - that it wasn't you, it was this blog that said it. And even so, you have to spin it.

No rational conversation, no discussion of the issues, just hate, hate, hate, hate, hate.

This, folks, is the future of America. Joey is the poster child for the "Hope is Change" movement. Your children's futures hinge on this man.

I fear for them, and for all of us.

Joe

This is Sad who first..Joe.

Joe:"You ... just ... don't ... get it. I don't care that he's in the public eye, nor should you. You should be focusing on the *issue* - the Obama redistribution of wealth plan - and not on the person who happened to bring it up."

Who is the one that put in the spot light , your camp , how were the people that said he is the normal American your camp.. how is the one that is saying this like Joe would make a great running mate your camp. W

"You didn't say "does not pay his taxes" you said he was a tax evader. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate."

More lies from your camp, can you show me where I said we was an tax evader... but still he does not pay his taxes, I guess broken the law is ok for your camp.

'
You said he was guilty of domestic abuse. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate.'

What?

"And by the way, Joey, I don't care if you personally didn't say those things... they were said on this blog and not challenged by any of you, which makes you all complicit."

Kind of like when you people say hung obama, and kill the N and Palin did not say anything lol. So once more whos show more hate.

"Ah, less than 24 hours and this will all be moot. But until then, I'll try to make sure there is one open blog with reason on it."

Lets see your reason is blaming other people for statements they did not make , and not address things that are given you lol.

"His ideology is completely different from what democracy stands for" - what does that mean? This guy is just looking for his 15 mins of fame. Well, DEMOCRACY is going elect Obama in a rout tomorrow. Then we can go from talking about Joe the Plumber to Barack the President.

This is fun. Let's see here, who first? Joey? Okay.

"You contradicted yourself there buddy. If he just asked a question so be it, but he went out stomping for him. We have TV ads with people saying I am Joe the plumber. And show me how I am giving hate , when I just question who this guy his that your camp holds in such high regards."

You ... just ... don't ... get it. I don't care that he's in the public eye, nor should you. You should be focusing on the *issue* - the Obama redistribution of wealth plan - and not on the person who happened to bring it up.

Again, even if Joe were a convicted murderer, it wouldn't make his question any less valid, Obama's answer any less frightening, or your attakcs any less hateful.

"Us saying Joe does not pay his taxes is not hate. But I guess you people can do anything and it is ok ."

You didn't say "does not pay his taxes" you said he was a tax evader. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate.

You said he was guilty of domestic abuse. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate.

While Obama may indeed want to unite the country, it's pretty clear that those who follow him live on hate, and that's what scares me.

And by the way, Joey, I don't care if you personally didn't say those things... they were said on this blog and not challenged by any of you, which makes you all complicit.

Ah, less than 24 hours and this will all be moot. But until then, I'll try to make sure there is one open blog with reason on it.

Joe

This is fun. Let's see here, who first? Joey? Okay.

"You contradicted yourself there buddy. If he just asked a question so be it, but he went out stomping for him. We have TV ads with people saying I am Joe the plumber. And show me how I am giving hate , when I just question who this guy his that your camp holds in such high regards."

You ... just ... don't ... get it. I don't care that he's in the public eye, nor should you. You should be focusing on the *issue* - the Obama redistribution of wealth plan - and not on the person who happened to bring it up.

Again, even if Joe were a convicted murderer, it wouldn't make his question any less valid, Obama's answer any less frightening, or your attakcs any less hateful.

"Us saying Joe does not pay his taxes is not hate. But I guess you people can do anything and it is ok ."

You didn't say "does not pay his taxes" you said he was a tax evader. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate.

You said he was guilty of domestic abuse. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate.

While Obama may indeed want to unite the country, it's pretty clear that those who follow him live on hate, and that's what scares me.

And by the way, Joey, I don't care if you personally didn't say those things... they were said on this blog and not challenged by any of you, which makes you all complicit.

Ah, less than 24 hours and this will all be moot. But until then, I'll try to make sure there is one open blog with reason on it.

Joe

This is fun. Let's see here, who first? Joey? Okay.

"You contradicted yourself there buddy. If he just asked a question so be it, but he went out stomping for him. We have TV ads with people saying I am Joe the plumber. And show me how I am giving hate , when I just question who this guy his that your camp holds in such high regards."

You ... just ... don't ... get it. I don't care that he's in the public eye, nor should you. You should be focusing on the *issue* - the Obama redistribution of wealth plan - and not on the person who happened to bring it up.

Again, even if Joe were a convicted murderer, it wouldn't make his question any less valid, Obama's answer any less frightening, or your attakcs any less hateful.

"Us saying Joe does not pay his taxes is not hate. But I guess you people can do anything and it is ok ."

You didn't say "does not pay his taxes" you said he was a tax evader. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate.

You said he was guilty of domestic abuse. When I proved that wrong, did I hear an apology or retraction? No... just more hate.

While Obama may indeed want to unite the country, it's pretty clear that those who follow him live on hate, and that's what scares me.

And by the way, Joey, I don't care if you personally didn't say those things... they were said on this blog and not challenged by any of you, which makes you all complicit.

Ah, less than 24 hours and this will all be moot. But until then, I'll try to make sure there is one open blog with reason on it.

Joe

Joe the Plumber, an individual with a very questionable background, has been elevated to a prominence he clearly doesn't deserve. It angers me as an American that some in the media are elevating him to this status of an all american guy kind of spokesman, which fortunately, he clearly isn't. The McCain campaign's media debacle with Joe also embarrasses me as an American. Contrary to the more recently inspired xenophobia, we do have an international reputation to repair.

Joe Said:" Now, by "stomping" for McCain, he does put himself in the public eye and so his background is fair game. " But then you go on to say people are attacking him just for his question.

You contradicted yourself there buddy. If he just asked a question so be it, but he went out stomping for him. We have TV ads with people saying I am Joe the plumber. And show me how I am giving hate , when I just question who this guy his that your camp holds in such high regards.

Us saying Joe does not pay his taxes is not hate. But I guess you people can do anything and it is ok .

Joe the Plumber is connected to McCain's past. I do not think he was a "random" choice.
Joe's brother is the son- in- law to Charles Keating.
Yes, that Keating the scandal that McCain was involved in. The biggest banking and loan scandal till now.

And speaking as a liberal and reading several of your comments, I'm struck by how things get twisted around.
I'm not demanding that you take anybodies lifestyle, religion or view.
WHat I would like is the freedom to be who I am.
Republicans, for all their insistence that they do not want government control sure are passing a lot of laws governing how people should act and what they can and cannot do.

Who the hell cares what this idiot says? Oh, that's right, he is McCain/Palin's hero. This has gotten to be just ridiculous. John McCain should spend the next 4 years trying to regain whatever dignity he has lost during this campaign. It is sad to see this once proud man, literally grovelling for votes. He pick Joe from under the bus, and Palin from under the bus. You just wait, after the election, they will both throw him under the bus -- anything to enhance their careers. What a sad, sad commentary for this once admired man.

"Joe the Plumber is reveling away in a political cesspool out of the McCain campaign's desperation. What a toxic piece of sewage he is!

Posted by: kat | Nov 3, 2008 10:48:31 AM"

This is Liberal-Fascism at it's most heinous. You say Joe is a tax evader, I rebut that lie with facts. You say Joe is a domestic violence offender, I rebut that lie with facts.

So now you resort to name calling without anything resembling a fact, thereby avoiding rebuttal. That, folks, is what we get with the "Hope is Change" movement.

Who need facts when we have rhetoric!

Joe

Joe the Plumber is reveling away in a political cesspool out of the McCain campaign's desperation. What a toxic piece of sewage he is!

I do truly get a kick out of this. "Gadfly", "skinhead", "scufflaw". The skinhead remark is particularly telling of the poster - not a whole lot of tolerance there. Or maybe "not a plumber" as if that matters. Attacks against Joe, and every one misses the point - it's not who said it, it's what he said.

I think what I fear the most is not the hatred exhibited here, but the complete lack of any sort of coherent reasoning - it's just hate, hate, hate. And unreasoned hatred is the underlying basis of all fundamentalism.

The Liberal party espouses inclusion and tolerance, and yet acts in complete xenophobia and hatred. I'm considering changing my name and my IP address to make sure the thought police don't come after me next...

Joe