Ohio Woman Who Wrote President of Insurance Woes Back In Hospital

How can I say it more plainly-- "The proposals also would improve both tax equity and economic efficiency" (CBPP)

It isn't a platitude to say that if there is no business, there are no workers in said business. As for regurgitating some sort of ideology with regard to business, well, give us all an example of a business built from the bottom up.

Do workers make vital contributions? Of course they do, but who created the business concept? Who took the risk?

I would agree wholeheartedly that some people put in a great deal of hard work and aren't compensated to the degree they think they should be. There were times I didn't feel I was paid fairly, but it was my option to stay or find another job. But, there is nothing to be gained in staying around and then just complaining that you're "making your boss rich".

No person has the right to healthcare or any type of insurance paid for by another person. It's an immoral violation of one's individual rights to force that situation.

To say that the workers support the top is a lovely platitude, but if you take away the top, there is no business.

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To say they don't, is even more of a platitude, LOL. But, no worries,an utter lack of imagination in regard to the hierarchy and business-- and the tendency to regurgitate ideology-- suits many so-called "conservatives", So good on ya. You come across as a good loyal apologist for the hierarchical status quo.

When the blinders are off, many more possibilities come into play-- but I agree many are too risk-averse to put their neck out there and try them. It took me awhile to shake that off and I certainly did my time in the corporate inferno. I get it more than you may think-- but I stick to my assessment on the hard work thing.

Those people who work and produce are paid by someone. It isn't their creation or their capital that has gone into the business. The profits from the business trickle down to the worker. That's not being an idealogue, it's just a fact. To say that the workers support the top is a lovely platitude, but if you take away the top, there is no business.

And you can snark all you want, but the reality is that unless you are self employed, you are employed by someone. You do a job for which you are paid. If you don't want to do it anymore, you are replaced. It will never be the other way around no matter how much you wish it were. The deli owner does not get rich on the back of his workers, he pays his workers for a job they do. If the deli owner gets hit by a bus and the business closes, his workers are out of a job unless they have the capital to keep it going.

You still can't demonstrate how redistributing the wealth of America will do anything constructive to change the lives of the poor.

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Sure, I can-- if I wish to bother with an idealogue. Meanwhile, you haven't demonstrated a thing.

What's funny to me is that the Republican distribution of money from the poor and middle class to the wealthy and corporations has squeezed the middle class and small business and made the working poor poorer. If you read economist blogs you can get explanations with graphs and everything To pretend you don't support redistrution of wealth is ridiculous. What you don't support is equity and equal opportunity. I think the whole separation of liberty and equality is a red herring. A b.s. thing that the selfish and greedy throw out there to justify their selfishness and greed. I'm unimpressed and unmoved by that.

I don't believe many of those who espouse so-called "conservative" principles (which is really just Republican demagoguing) work harder than the cops I know. Plain and simple. Or my husband who owns a deli-- or the guys and gals who work with him Or my bff who owns a hair salon. Or the builder putting an addition on my house. Or my partner who is a firefighter. Or my sister who is a principal. Or my friend who owns an organic farm. Or my massage therapist. Sorry. You can tell yourself that you do -- but it just makes me laugh, and wrinkle my nose a bit.

Wealth trickles up all the time. Ask the people who actually produce.Who actually work hard and get trapped in the job-lock you wish on them.

I realize that if you're in the tax bracket you claim to be in, you may wish to cling to the status quo where the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class shrinks-- and that you likely justify that with a self-centered ideology such as objectivism or so called American conservatism" which is usually just being a proponent for the corporate nanny state and upholding current power structures rather than anything to do with intellectual conservatism and/or fiscal responsibility-- but obviously I'm not impressed with your claim. I find the information at CBPP more pressing and on point.

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I do think my money belongs to me. I have worked hard for it and paid my fair share of taxes. I do not, however, think that I should be taxed multiple times on the same money.

You still can't demonstrate how redistributing the wealth of America will do anything constructive to change the lives of the poor. We've been giving away money for years and the War on Poverty has been a rousing failure. I recognize your philosophy is one of "economic justice" and "tax equality", but I have seen no evidence of that doing anything other than taking money from hard working people and putting it into a black hole.

The question that no progressive/liberal seems to want to answer is to give an example of Keynesian economics as a successful solution. Wealth will never trickle up.

The republicas are not interested in health care because they are in the pockets of the insurance companies. They had 8 yrs to do health care and did nothing...why do you think that was? The main objective is to kill any and all plans put forth by President Obama. Senator Dowd has tried to get this republican to put sanctions on the banks and now he has refused so Dowd will do it alone. The hate that is generated by this party who beats their breasts and claim they are good people and good Americans cannot and will not get past their loss to help the public with health care. It is the most expensive thing to take our economy down and it will if we do nothing. Let's be honest, they really do not care and they would rather unite and be wrong and try their scare tacticts which have worked in the past. However, people are on to them and most times pay them no interest. They are fooling no one.

I got the impression that the woman's illness and its return had nothing directly to do with her having or not having health insurance. She received treatment didn't she? She wasn't denied treatment at any point was she? The problem seems to be who is going to pay for the treatment and not her illness or whether she gets treatment for it. Everyone would be concerned if she did not get treatment within our system as it currently exists. How to pay for that treatment is a different issue. No one's insurance, if they have it, pays 100% of the costs. What you wind up paying can or can not be an onerous burden depending on individual circumstances. Will this healthcare bill make those onerous burdens FOR SOME a thing of the past using OUR MONEY? What those who do not now have health insurance at all because they cannot afford it, suddenly be able to afford co-pays and the difference between what government mandated insurance pays and what the charges are? Are WE, using OUR MONEY, be on the hook for that as well as the insurance premiums for these people? This country is BANKRUPT. Maybe you and congress do not realize that. In this congress's and this president's mad rush to ram down our throats a system behind closed doors that will put us further into the hole, they will have effectively done away with the concept of personal responsibility.

How can I say it more plainly - I've already paid taxes on that money once.

Posted by: ConservativeWoman | Mar 11, 2010 5:20:09 PM

How can I say it more plainly-- "The proposals also would improve both tax equity and economic efficiency" (CBPP)

AND

"As is well known, incomes have surged in recent decades for households at the top of the income scale while stagnating for ordinary Americans. High-income households also have benefited from very large tax cuts." (CBPP)

I realize that if you're in the tax bracket you claim to be in, you may wish to cling to the status quo where the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and the middle class shrinks-- and that you likely justify that with a self-centered ideology such as objectivism or so called American conservatism" which is usually just being a proponent for the corporate nanny state and upholding current power structures rather than anything to do with intellectual conservatism and/or fiscal responsibility-- but obviously I'm not impressed with your claim. I find the information at CBPP more pressing and on point.

progressive mama: Since there is no cap on Medicare taxes plenty of us have paid more than our fair share. And why should I pay it twice? Once on earned income and then again and again and again on interest? Tax equity??? How can I say it more plainly - I've already paid taxes on that money once.

It doesn't matter how you slice the healthcare bill.. we don't have enough money available to cover the increasingly complex and expensive diagnostics and procedures.. and the population is aging.. we would have to set aside 50 percent of our incomes to cover future outlays.. in the long run it just doesn't matter..but if it helps a few peeps have access for a few years.. what the hey?

Conservative woman, I'll emphasize this part:

"The proposals also would improve both tax equity and economic efficiency. Under current law, people with very high incomes generally pay a smaller share of their income in Medicare taxes than middle-class and low-income working families do because they derive much of their income from capital gains and dividends, which are now exempt from the Medicare tax. The proposal would address this disparity." (Center for Budget & Policy Priorities, chuck Marr)

I'll add this from the same source, and article:

"As is well known, incomes have surged in recent decades for households at the top of the income scale while stagnating for ordinary Americans. High-income households also have benefited from very large tax cuts."

This bill and controversy is a political career killer....

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Absolutely, push the Republicans to make their stand crystal clear-- no health care reform because its a political killer. Push them to say they'll repeal anything that passes and then let the chips fall wherever they may, as they slash and burn the middle class.

Meanwhile, the progressive candidates should step up and say they don't care if its a "political killer", they're going to keep going with health care reform because the status quo is unsustainable, continue to improve what has been passed. Put their actual ideas and solutions out there.

And then we'll see what happens.

Meanwhile, check out Reid's letter to McConnell. I love it. Reconcile this!

Lol.

progressive mama: As I said earlier, how many times do you want to tax me on the same money? Just come take all my stuff and give it away to others who didn't earn it. Get it over with.

This bill and controversy is a political career killer, HRC is the best example.. she might be the President today..

As progressive Mama says only those making over a certain amount would feel the tax. To compare this story as a fear tactic is laughable. That is the republican's tool and have used it agains Ms. Richardson in Tex. to get Bush elected and again for Kerry and Clinton and others have felt the "fear" tactics of the republican party. They are using it again against health care trying to scare you with higher taxes, higher payments, losing your doctor if you like him, death panel....none of these things are true. the general public wil not be taxed, no one will be killed by a death panel and you can keep your doctor if you want. This plan is to give you choices so that maybe you can save a few pennies on your health care. This insurance group will help keep costs lower as the more that enter, the less the fees will be. What exactly is wrong with that? Also, the more people that will be able to afford insurance the more people will be available for insurance companies should they choose to use them. This plan, though not perfect, will lower the costs and yes, everyone should get health insurance because if they don't we will still be paying for those that dont.There will be those who will milk the system and not buy insurance and we will still be paying for them. This is for those who are waiting in the emergency rooms that we are paying for. It should be mandatory just like car insurance. If everyone is covered..no one gets screwed.

Posted by: ConservativeWoman | Mar 11, 2010 1:13:04 PM

WSJ: "Wealthy taxpayers would have to pay Medicare taxes on unearned income such as interest and dividends under the president's plan. Currently, Medicare taxes only apply to earned income. The Medicare tax on unearned income would apply to joint filers making more than $250,000 a year and individuals making more than $200,000 a year."

See also CBPP, "Changes in Medicare Tax on High-Income People Represent Sound Additions to Health Reform " and note that the provision would affect only the 2.6 percent of U.S. households with the highest incomes

Per CBPP: "These proposals would mainly affect people with incomes exceeding $1 million a year. The Tax Policy Center reports that 74 percent of the increase in Medicare tax contributions would come from people making over $1 million a year, and 91 percent would come from people with incomes over $500,000....

The proposals also would improve both tax equity and economic efficiency. Under current law, people with very high incomes generally pay a smaller share of their income in Medicare taxes than middle-class and low-income working families do because they derive much of their income from capital gains and dividends, which are now exempt from the Medicare tax. The proposal would address this disparity."

Now they'll add Medicare taxes to unearned income - known as a TAX INCREASE - to fund this garbage. So I already paid Medicare taxes on the money I earned, now I get to pay it again on interest earned? Why not just confiscate all of my money and property now and just get it over with.

It's a lot easier to demonize health insurance companies and mean nasty republicans than it is to answer questions and debate the Democratic health care plan.
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Oh come on. The Democratic bills have been under consideration for months now - with questions being asked and answered. For you to pretend otherwise is just political posturing.

And again, Conservatives and Republicans had control of Congress for almost 8 years straight and the presidency for 8 - and accomplished almost nothing regarding health care.

We all have our stories. This woman would be served better by charity than the government or business. If charities were changed to where donations to them reduced your taxes as *credits* instead of *deductions* people would give more to charities than they do now. If they were lazy or actually believed that the government could spend the money better than charities they could *choose* to send their money to, they would be perfectly welcome to give their money up the same as they do now!

So although the Democrats see this as a reason *for* BIG GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION, I see it as JUST THE OPPOSITE!

Bureaucrats really can't care. They are constrained by rules that force them to help those who don't need it while denying it to those who do! This woman would be worse off in Communist Russia at the height of its power, at the best it ever was! That is Obama's Dream, I am afraid!

"You should be able to enjoy the company of some health insurance lobbyists there - they've got millions to spend lobbying politicians and others to support their 'system'."
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Indeed. Good times. I'm not worried about anything and neither is Nancy. She's right behind me.

ObamaCare will not help this woman, truth be known later on down the road with socialized healthcare - she would be allowed to die rather than 'waste' money on her - she would be sacrificed for the good of the many. Stories like this are for propaganda reasons only. I feel sorry for anyone with an major disease, however this dopey president and congress do not have the answer, they only offer solutions to making matters worse.

Stories like this woman are the things that motivates this President to do something for the ordinary person. For years, they have been ignored. This bill, though not perfect, will help 30 million people....not 3 million like the republicans want. What is everyone's problem? Can we not do something for the whole and not for the few? Wake up...this is what is needed and in the end will reduce the price of insurance and prohibit insurance companies from throwing you off when you do get sick.

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Nice post, talmag.

Meanwhile, at American Prospect's Tapped blog, Tim Fernholz offers a nice round up of all the problems (ripoffs for ordinary Americans) in Ryan's roadmap plan. Though I was admirable of his efforts to tackle the deficit, several analyses now reveal how regressive it is -- and, in the end, it WON'T eliminate the deficit.

Sigh.

You, like the President can continue your game of playing on people's emotions and on personal stories. It just shows that there is not a lot of substance to your argument and still leaves a big donut hole in your costs and financing.

It's a lot easier to demonize health insurance companies and mean nasty republicans than it is to answer questions and debate the Democratic health care plan.

FYI - the lobbyists you demonize and hate, were the same lobbyists carving out special deals with President Obama that banned the government from negotiating pharmaceutical prices.

When you argue on emotion, it leaves little time to care or look into facts.

"There are thousands upon thousands of stories just like this - and it must be changed. That is the point."

Get your checkbook out! I'm going to the beach.

Posted by: Charlie | Mar 11, 2010 12:08:15 PM
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You should be able to enjoy the company of some health insurance lobbyists there - they've got millions to spend lobbying politicians and others to support their 'system'.

"There are thousands upon thousands of stories just like this - and it must be changed. That is the point."

Get your checkbook out! I'm going to the beach.

Conservative and Republicans are not saying we don't need to reform the system.
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Conservatives and Republicans had control of Congress for almost 8 years straight and the presidency for 8 - and accomplished almost nothing regarding health care. Your 'efforts' are limp and late.

It's what Democrats like to call the "Politics of Fear"

Posted by: Aaron | Mar 11, 2010 11:54:05 AM

Actually its the politics of real people. One thing mass murderers do-- or other twisted folks who do very cruel things-- is to either demonize or dehumanize those they wish to be cruel to or kill.

Dehumanizing the story, dehumanizing the uninsureds, allows one to choose cruelty and the less civilized path.

I'm glad the Dems care about real people.

Using a personal story of one woman to build up guilt among the electorate and congress people is a bit much in my book.
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There are thousands upon thousands of stories just like this - and it must be changed. That is the point.

It's what Democrats like to call the "Politics of Fear"

No it's not. Using a personal story of one woman to build up guilt among the electorate and congress people is a bit much in my book.

This letter and this personal story do not contribute to trying to reform health care and health insurance. It would be more appropriate for the President to address to real questions about costs, taxes, coverage, etc that everyone is anxious about.

Conservative and Republicans are not saying we don't need to reform the system. They're saying that the current plan being offered my Democrats is not the right way to do it and have raised serious and real issues about costs and other parts of the reform. When you pull out these personal stories about suffering, which are real and tragic, you duck those questions and go back to playing on people's emotions.

"But why not open Medicare to everyone." - Dan

That idea is worth thinking about.
I had earlier suggested expanding the VA hospital footprint to provide basic health care to the poor who can't afford it and allow the general hospitals to only treat people with private insurance or Medicare. Do that or let hospitals set up care areas with basic services for people without insurance. That would decrease what they spend on all the free care they are forced to administer now. Also it would serve as an incentive to get insurance knowing you'd get only basic care instead of the best care out there. Jackson Hospital in Miami is now something like 250 million dollars in debt because of all the care they end up giving for free. My idea is one step towards helping an institution like that become solvent.

The one major problem I see with your idea Dan is that there is massive fraud in Medicare right now. Adding people to a system that is unable to get a handle on that will just increase what we pay as a nation for health care.

In other words, for your idea to have merit the government would have to figure out a way of stopping the fraud. That's something they have been unable to do since the inception of Medicare.

Posted by: Aaron | Mar 11, 2010 11:48:22 AM

Always good to here a proponent of the "Bring on the Depression!" school of economics.

Stories like this woman are the things that motivates this President to do something for the ordinary person. For years, they have been ignored. This bill, though not perfect, will help 30 million people....not 3 million like the republicans want. What is everyone's problem? Can we not do something for the whole and not for the few? Wake up...this is what is needed and in the end will reduce the price of insurance and prohibit insurance companies from throwing you off when you do get sick. They have been having record profits on the backs of all of us. It is time for someone to get busy and take them on and Obama has. Many untruths are floating out there by talk show pundents. They don't care about you either they want big ratings. No better than the insurance companies, I say. Even the president of Fox admits that there are some untruths, however,his words were..this is a business and I am rated number one. So what does that tell you? If we don't do something now,,,we all suffer. Today, as we speak they want to raise rates39% for costs? What costs...when you have record profits obviously you have met your costs.

Healthcare will pass.. there are enough stimulus dollars left to buy off the obstructionist democrats holding up this bill.. I'm sure Nancy is "spreading" the wealth around

I thought the President wanted to drop the political props.
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Calling real people facing disastrous health insurances situations 'props' is a bit much.

Yes, I do believe letting the car industries take a haircut through bankruptcy law would've been a better saver of jobs. It is the natural way for the market to allocate resources. Now we just prolong the inevitable while maintaining overly generous and restrictive labor contracts. Now all of this captital is being wasted on companies, especially Chrysler, that are just going to be back at the public trough in another few years because they are still set up for failure.

It's not two sides of the mouth at all. When the government breaks decades of contract law to help out their favor political donors, the unions, other industries and companies are unable to function because now there are no clear rules of the road. What industries will government save? Why would private capital invest in companies when they are not sure when the government will come in, break contract law, and wipe them out to save their favored union buddies.

I thought the President wanted to drop the political props. Why do we keep using personal stories? I have a lot of sympathy for this lady, but this just distracts from the real health care debate.

One standard for your opponents. Another standard for yourself. Bad leadership.

Political Baron Von Munchausen Syndrome!

The same people who created the skyrocketing premiums now bask in the sick attention whilst proclaiming a cure! My rates continue to climb as the government a) FORCES BC/BS to cover me for things I don't want coverage for:abortion, anti-depressants, et al b) refuses to reign in lawsuits that I end up subsidizing c) making pharma releases so expensive (again we subsidize)....BARON VON MUNHAUSEN.

Susie: Medicare denies more claims that private insurance? Please. Maybe that's because they cover way more people, particularly way more sick, elderly people, than do private companies. I have United Healthcare and my policy is good for nothing except being used as toilet paper. My elderly relatives who are on medicare can't understand WHY I get so many claims denied because they have Medicare and rarely have any problems. I, on the other hand, am now paying off $3000 worth of bills that United Healthcare preapproved, and then decided to deny AFTER I got the treatment. It's a moot point ANYWAY because the Senate bill doesn't have a public option (ie govt.-run healtcare),

Big Bad insurance companies -- well Medicare denied more claims than any private insurance company last year.

My mother had surgery -- and because of complications, they had to take her back into surgery within 24 hours. Medicare denied the claim because she had two surgeries within 24 hours.

Just love government run health insurance. I suppose the doctor could have waited another day -- but then my mother would have been dead.

"After they STOLE the money and spent it they declared WE HAVE TO RAISE TAXES TO PAY FOR SOCIAL SECURITY. So a plan can work if it is kept away from Congress after it is started. That means Medicare and Social Security can be repaired and not cost tax payers a trillion dollars. But the main statement is KEEP CONGRESS OUT OF THE FUND."

Good luck with that too.

--Start by formulating the new bill around Tort Reform.--

Good luck!

Imagine Healthcare (Medicare) and retirement (Social Security) that gives every citizen healthcare and retirement without raising taxes. This could be a first if politicians actually do it. But remember their campaign fund contributors will not like it. So will it happen? Vote accordingly you get what you vote for.

MITCHSOVE actually there was one program that was working just fine. People paid into it with each paycheck, the fund to support it grew and did not need tax dollars to keep it afloat. But Congress got wind of it and took the money out of the fund and put it in the general fund and started spending it. It was call Social Security. It is the only government started plan that I know of that actually worked until Congress saw it was working too good and making money to the point tax dollars were not needed. After they STOLE the money and spent it they declared WE HAVE TO RAISE TAXES TO PAY FOR SOCIAL SECURITY. So a plan can work if it is kept away from Congress after it is started. That means Medicare and Social Security can be repaired and not cost tax payers a trillion dollars. But the main statement is KEEP CONGRESS OUT OF THE FUND.

Noz in many ways you are right. But why not open Medicare to everyone. This is a stop gap that will not cost us a trillion dollars and will give healthcare to all people. What I am saying is it would be cheaper doing this then get people working again and while this is going on put Medicare under the same laws large insurance carriers have to abide by. This will do a few things get people, help the economy and give everyone healthcare that does not use PRE-EXISTING and a reason not to pay.

Thank you, Noz. We do need reform. We don't need anecdotes. We don't need scapegoating. We live in an aging society in which the demand for medical care is rising. The day of spending a career with one employer who provides benefits to retirement with Medicare taking over from there is gone.

Government is part of the problem. While they can provide value, they will never be the complete solution. It's been proven over and over.

At some point, she will be eligible for government healthcare payments, regardless of the outcome of the current bill in Congress.. yes, the system is broken and no, we don't think all of Obama's horses and all of Obama's men can fix it.

"I'm telling Obama to KEEP TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE!!! I voted for him to get this problem changed. I didn't want him to give up just cause it was hard." - Sue B

I'm with you Sue!
Mr. President, when the current bill fails to pass please don't give up.
Like Sue says KEEP TALKING ABOUT HEALTH CARE!!!
Sit down with both sides and start on a new bill that deals with these outrageous costs.
Start by formulating the new bill around Tort Reform.
You can do it Mr. President!
I have faith in you.