Clinton lost ALL credibility regarding "let all the votes count" when she started her ploy and statements that pledged delegates are not really pledged and basically should vote for her. Delegates are sent to the convention representing the WILL of the votes via the primaries and caucuses in their states. To have them "change" as she has requested gives any argument she puts forth on the subject of voter fairness pointless.

'Pledged delegates are not pledged', as per Senator Hilary Untrustworthy. lol

So Hilary's pledge delegates ARE FREE to desert her campaign for Obama's.
And let's hope that her pledge delegates desert Hilary soon, so that the Dem's national campaign can begin in earnest.

It's amazing how many voters -- not to mention most of the MSM -- have bought into this "popular vote" bs. Don't you all see it is more Clinton alchemy? First it was about delegates. Oops! Your opponent has more than you and you can't catch up. OK, well then, they're not really PLEDGED, you know -- there's no such thing. Besides, it's about the states I've won with the most electoral votes. Oops! History shows there's no correlation between winning states' primaries and winning them in the g.e. Oh, well in that case, it's the popular vote. Oops! Your opponent is ahead by 700,000. Well, yeah, but that's without counting the two states that I agreed in writing wouldn't count. But you can't DISENFRANCHISE those poor voters!! What do you mean I didn't care until I fell behind? Details, details!!

WestCoastMessanger, it is good to live with hope, that is what Obama is asking us to do. Hill, the Bosnian Commander in Chief, will not win popular vote or number of pledged or superdelegates. The writing is on the wall, you do not want to see it. God bless America and God bless Obama. OBAMA08.

Count all the votes. If you don't then Obama is stealing the nomination. WRIGHT! He will do anything to win, even pissing off 2.3million people, he is retarded.

I'm EMBARRASSED for her now. This election was over after Texas/Ohio, and I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt that she was fighting the good fight, but this is pathetic.

Seriously, any day now she's gonna call for the votes on Pluto to count.

Didn't work for Gore in 2000, and won't work for her now. Of course, she'd have a much, much, more credible argument if she actually LED in the popular vote, OR electoral college. Keep dreamin' Hilliary. You can steal what ISN'T yours!!!

Any worthwhile leader HAS TO HAVE INTEGRITY!

In a large nation of 300 million citizens, no national leader can interact directly with every citizen.

Therefore THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE WORDS OF THE LEADER is vital for meaningful and effective communication about national matters!

(Remember the words about WMD and al kaida being in Iraq, which is costing Americans in lives, limbs, mental health and huge budget deficit?)

Which American would trust the words of ANY Clinton in leadership position?
Hilary Clinton changes her words and position as frequently as she changes her napkins.
No principle!
No integrity!
Untrustworthiness is horrible in a female, especially an older female!
Bad example for the young women of America is Hilary Clinton. For shame!

Obama is stealing this nomination like Bush did Gore and we democrats are letting it happen. This isn't democracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obama can never be trusted with in our white house ,because of his background,i think that ill. should be sued for even electing him as a sentor with his back ground, he should be in prison, not in the white house making all of the decisions concerning our country, another man mebe but not obama

WCM>>>>>> hilly stands up herself and her self only....If you think this woman and I use the word carefully is for you , you are mistaken.She only wants POWER and will do ANYTHING to get it.Got all the money she needs now and more to come after the 2007 taxes about 41 mil.....She won't show these yet for the money came for big companies that paid her to shut up about her BIG medical plan.One insurance co. alone gave her over 800.000 ,,,,,,,,,,

The popular vote in Florida and Michigan has already been counted. It was determined by election results. It was certified by election officials in each state. It’s been officially tallied by the secretary of state in each state," she said. "And the question is whether those 2.3 million Democrats will be honored and the delegates seated by the Democratic Party."

he needs them so therefore she will fight for them or better yet there numbers

Thinking: So what!

The bigger issue is that Obama has to outspend her in Pennsylvania as he did in Texas and Ohio - and he still can't win.

Jay,

I disagree with your assessment. Even if by some DNC Magic those totals were to be included (including MI, where only Clinton's name was on the ballot), the question is moot anyway.

Delegates is how the nominees are chosen, and even Clinton surrogates concede they cannot catch Obama. Their only hope is the Super Delegates, and a growing chorus of them have stated unequivocally they will not overturn the winner of the pledged delegate count.

I know you're spinning so hard that to your point of view everyone else is spinning, but at least try to remember the rules. You DO remember the rules, don't you?

Morningside

Actually they are some polls now that show Obama ahead in PA, but it is certain he cut her big lead down to single digits.

Second if supporters begin to think that her funds are drying up, then they start to withhold money, nobody wants to put their money into a loosing proposition. Not the big boys anyway.

So the perception of loosing fulfills itself.

Neither Hillary nor Obama can be trusted with the safety and security of this nation, and the majority of American voters know it. While the Democratic party implodes into a miasmic quagmire of mutual slime, slam, vituperation and recrimination between two first-term Senators whose only claims to legitimacy are dueling versions of identity politics, John McCain, the only person left in the race with the qualifications and experience to occupy the Oval Office, is running an honest and decent campaign that is worthy of the American people, and they will reward him by choosing him as our next President.

Jackt51
that is so funny i am still laughing
The Queen should abdicate her throne

In history the minions would scream long live the Queen...Her we are yelling say good bye to the Queen
Obama08

Back the empty suit, flim flam man and watch him get humiliated in the GE. I guess Michelle can then go back to feeling un-proud to be an American.

Don't fall for the tripe these two candidates are feeding you. Vote for a person who actually cares for the public as much as he cares for himself.

Boy she just dosen't seem to have a firm grasp of reality does she? She's been screaming the same thing for over a month and nothing has changed because the DNC is going to stand firm that they will not allow a faulty vote to effect the outcome of this race. Her numbers all down all over, she is at her lowest in trust polls and her unlikability is almost off the charts and she does not get it. People want to play fair. They do not want a winner at any cost. The do not want to see someone act like the school yard bully.
FL and MI votes will count if she decides to let them but much like her decision to disenfranchise them a year and half ago, when she thought she would not need them, she is unwilling to let them count unless it benefits her.
No one, and I mean this honestly, no one could say MI was fair. No one though some do try.
She is getting desperate and it is so awful to see.

He's raised and spent all those millions of dollars and yet Hillary is still right there. Why aren't more people jumping on the "yes we can" express?

A self proclaimed uniter that belongs to a black separatist church is not going to win too many votes in middle America.

Tony,

That is correct, but you will notice that Obama id still the choice of the Democratic Party and he still stand favorably with McCain, So either the 56% are either being less then truthful or it don't matter.

Think about that; how could Obama loose 56% of Hillary's supporters, that is roughly 25% of the democratic primary voters, and still be leading or neck to neck with McCain and still be ahead of Hillary in the polls.

Last time I looked, the DNC was
outranked by the Constitution of the United States...... and does not have the right nor the power to dis-enfranchise the ability of even ONE citizen to vote!

Here we have a situation wherein the population of two states is effectively
erased from the electorate.....
and that's OK.... WITH WHOM????

Not with HIllary followers!
We don't expect the followers of B O to to do anything to re-establish the rights of these voters; they're too busy working on the rights of races....
(just not election races!!!!)

A funny thing about this dumb situation is that B O was the ONLY candidate who advertised during their early voting... and still didn't win!!!

Oh NO!!!! Could THAT be the reason he won't push for the rights of these citizens???

Wow! What a President he would make...N O T!!!!

GIVE 'EM HELL, HILLARY!!!

Florida is slightly different, as all candidates names were on the ballot, but in Michigan Hillary's was the only name on the ballot. And even in Florida no-one really campaigned in that state, so neither is really a 'fair' election in a way that we would recognise as democratic and fair, and the voters of both states knew at the time they voted that delegates were not going to be seated based on those results. Its really Clinton, not Obama who is acting like Bush, and trying to use any argument possible to win this election, never mind what the popular vote, or even the delegate count says. Honestly I genuinely believe the next president of the USA will be either Barack Obama or John McCain. If Hillary tricks herself to the nomination, it will mean nothing as she will lose, no matter what she said to Bill Richardson.

If Obama won MI and FL and he was behind on the popular vote, do you honestly think his campaign would not fight to have those votes counted. Do you honestly think that you Obama voters would criticize him? Do you honestly think you wouldn't want those votes counted? Every vote should count.

questioner

Primaries do not count as votes. They're simply an arbitrary way for a party to nomonate a candidate. Fact it, a party doesn't need to have primary votes and a candidate doesn't need a party.

Desperate, desperate, desperate. It's already over, and Hillary doesn't seem to know. Wonder what her real goal is? Maybe she will write a book (sham deal of course) next year and let us know what she hoped to accomplish.

Tired of playing the game MY CANDIDATE IS LESS DIRTY THAN YOUR CANDIDATE? Make a difference.

Well she is correct in one thing, that is if she keeps fighting it is doubtful that Obama can gain enough delegates to win outright.

What she realy hopes for is a major screw up by the Obama Campaign. You can bet that her capaign is going to the well to look for something. They are digging.

Texas Voter, There is no spin, if she is successful in winning a half million more votes than Obama, the Supers will consider that and who can be stronger in the electoral college vote. Also if she wins by good margins Obama will only be ahead by 50 or so delegates. He cannot get to 2024 without the help of the super delegates, so the race is far from over, so now you can go ahead and spin the Obama win anyway you want. He hasn't won anything YET.

she won because there was no "real election"

Look at the numbers in the polls before every state primary...Hillary's numbers are the same as in Florida (Michigan is a joke because he was not even on the ballot)...

If it had been a real election those numbers would have moved just like every other state... in fact if Clinton hadn't used this as her own tool for her own benefit...we could have probably had an election.

She played these states and the supers aren't stupid they see what happened... She is manipulating a situation.

Those popular votes don't count because it is imperative that all candidates get to introduce themselves...that is why they call it a "beauty contest" ...

unfortunately the Florida and Michigan democratic parties should have never had those elections in the first place when the democratic national committee (and Hillary Clinton) told them they wouldn't count and Hillary didn't care.

She cares now only because it could help her if she looks like she is fighting for them...when it is obvious to those (even those who won't admit itnefariously) outside she is only fighting for her own position.

Jimmy carters family wants Barack Obama
Murtha says if she doesnt get the numbers Barack will win.
Barack Obama08

Hillary fans.

The game is up and your candidate was a victim of elitists who have hijacked the democratic party. Someboy said above that she's ok with Obama if Hillary doesn't make it. Such a person doesn't have a good idea about what the party stands for or anything about its history.

So sad.

the point is if those states had been a real election just like theothers Obama probably would have either tied her or won...but now she swept in there and immediately started manipulating a situation to make it look like she cared about the "voters"...she cared about the votes...those were not real elections because they did not allow those people to meet all the candidates so they voted for the woman they knew from being the first lady for 8 years.

She did not win a popular vote in either state because it was not a real election and unfortunately because of all this twisting and manipulation (typical and why we need to change) she goes back on what she said.

Sen Clinton does not stand up when it counts ...she stands up when it is good for her personally...

A real leader stands up then not using it to manipulate a system which then tears apart a party.

Jay,

I just don't see the math. Setting aside MI and FL (Because Howard Dean has said time and time again he would not honor those results), I just don't see where she makes up the delegates in the remaining 10 contests. She would have to win each and every single contest by over 65% just to catch up, and as I stated earlier, even if by some miracle she even closes to 100 delegates (almost a mathematical impossibility at this point), the Super Delegates will not back a candidate behind in pledged delegates.

I do agree with you, it is not over. We must play the string out. I suspect rather strongly, however, that come June 3rd, it will be official. This is assuming that the steady stream of Super Delegates already moving toward Obama has not turned into a torrent.

Ed Randell Says he likes Obama and if he gets it he will support him.

Hillary's support is not as strong as she paints it. That is why she keeps coming back with this and that. I think PA could end it for her. If Obama keeps coming on like he has the last week or so It will finish it for her.

by the way does everyone know that superdelegates and the committee that created them were created to make the party "more democratic" and to bring in more of the party to vote... superdelegates and the committee (and you can check this with the official documents in the formation of that committee,,,rather than taking Ferraro's complete twisting of the purpose of them) ...those superdelegates were supposed have reponsibility and "strengthen accountability to the members of the party and voters"...

Superdelegates are there to make sure no one plays switcharoonie with delegates responsibilities to their constituents or someone who twists the numbers ...

that is in the paragraph for why the Hunt Commision (the commission that created the supers)...why it was founded.

WestCoastMessenger -

D-E-L-E-G-A-T-E-S. Nothing else determines the winner. Nothing.

Michigan and Florida do count. 2.3 million Democrats voted in those states and will vote again in Nov. Any Democrats who think they don't exist are not interested in winning the white house in Nov.

SJ - What a wonderful world that would be...

WCM

She is running out of states.
Her campaign is broke.
Her support among the super delegates is soft.
Her Campaign is in disarray.
Her poll numbers are looking worse by the day. Her leads in PA and Indiana are disappearing, she is sinking further in NC

Well if there was not an official election why does Obama want a 50/50 split? What is he splitting votes that never happened, so he want the rewards of this illegal activity, he wants a prize from a race he claims he did not enter?

Nothing from nothing leave nothing so what exactly is he wanting to share if he knows these votes do not count?

IF OBAMA GETS THE NOMINATION,IT WILL BE THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AS WE KNOW IT...

REMEMBER THE SOUTH?????IT WAS SOLID DEMOCRATIC. NOW IS SOLID REPUBLICAN..

WE MUST READ HISTORY..

DEMOCRATS MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES OVER AND OVER AGAIN....
ARE THEY EVER LEARN???????

FL and MI were not elections so exactly what was it that happened there ???

sj...a fifty fifty split means he wants the state there and to participate but it wasn't a real election...and they should hold there state accountable number one because the rules were set up a long time before Dean had any kind of say really...this came out of the dealings of the last chairperson...and who was that? oh yeah. This was done two years before the election... the governor could not step in front of a party's election they could have brought to court if he tried to do that and they would have quickly won.

They wanted their state to be more important...that's why but unfortunately that went against party rules...and we could have settled this fairly if Hillary hadn't run down there after a fake election (and after she both looked like she may lose and she said they wouldn't count) and started saying she was fighting for their votes to count... as they were...ugh.

Now the problem couldn't even be fixed.

and this is the candidate you want to elect...because "she is a fighter"...

I guess you all can't wait but what else can we do I hope Hillary wins she will be the best President besides your all young OBama is to so why can't we just put Hillary first then OBama

SJ

FL and MI were elections...they just weren't real elections ...you have to give voters an opportunity to meet the candidates...otherwise they are voting for the candidate that was the First Lady for 8 years. That is what the numbers have shown in EVERY state before voters got to meet the candidates.

It wasn't a real election.

SJ

You have to get used to it.
In MI Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot. Sounds like a 3rd world election to me. One candidate

In Fl there was no Campaigning. How does a relative unknown go up against the likes of Hillary Clinton without a chance to talk with the voters?

Bottom line is that Hillary new they wouldn't count, and now all of a sudden she shows empathy?

Really so the ballot with the vote on property taxation. With respect to homestead property, that tax resolution that was included was not a real resolution ?

Geez I wonder if it passed it sure looked like a official ballot to me.

SJ

The rules were set up in 2006. Hillary had two years to complain about it, She didn't, your Governor didn't, Maybe you did I do not know.

Well I have four sister's who live in Fl. and if thier votes don't count guess what thier voting MCcain one is a nurse in Merrit Island One is a teacher one is a Pastor and a stay at home Mother. and they have many friends who are saying they will not vote Democratic

Am just asking how can Property Tax Exemptions; Limitations on Property Tax Assessments part be official, which was passed 64% to 36%.

Yet the Presidential Preference Primary not be a real election? People came out to vote and voted on both matters, so why should one side count and the other does not?

If Senator Clinton's name was not on the ballot, would you call what we had here a fair election? Do you live in Michigan? Honestly, those of you who don't live here should mind your own business - we have never asked you to revote your elections. Nobody here is really complaining about this issue. Why? Because we all knew that this was going to happen! It was repeated over and over, but our leaders here wanted an earlier say in the election. And guess what, it worked. Senator Clinton and the media were claiming Michigan as a state she won until March 4th. She has gotten plenty of political mileage out of us. But we are fair people in Michigan and we play by the rules - to pretend that the election here was something that it wasn't is misleading.

For democrats and independents who wanted their vote to count, the GOP primary was available and the son of a former governor was on the ballot.

I agree this is crazy and Hillary was not behind when the Fl took place she won on super tuesday but like all things the media has done nothing but give praise to Obama

@Bishop:

I agree that the media gave a pass to Senator Obama earlier partly from his lofty ideals, partly from resentment to the Clintons, and partly to keep things interesting for them. They are doing the same for Senator McCain now, I think most would agree.

But fair is fair and I'm not speaking for Florida, but Michigan's presidential primary was so screwed up this year that it is painful to watch it being brought up ad nauseum. Anyone claiming the contrary really seems silly from the perspective of those living here.

Its simple the democrats don't have to count the Fl votes they can leave them out but if they do and Obama is their nominee he cant win a GE without Florida now can he??

If some of you think he can let me know how.

She signed - those votes would not count.
So follow Your decision and do not play games with public.
If You can.
If You can not - GET OUT and write Your phony books.
GET OUT.

@SJ:

I think your point is correct that Senator Obama will have a hard time winning Florida in the general election (whether or not they count the votes in the primary). Did you see Tim Russert's analysis on how each candidate plans to win the general electoral vote? It was a nice breakdown on strategy by each group. After watching it, my impression was that any of the three candidates could win. I think, though, for the democrats to have a chance they will need to run a 50-state campaign this year.

Why should Hillary drop out. All it will take for her to win the nomination is one video clip of Obama dancing in the aisle while Wright delivered one of his hate speeches.

FL has 27 electorial votes and MI 17 total 44 votes, that is an awful lot of votes to drop and still hope to win a GE.

There is going to be a lot of pissed people in these states that did not like what was done and they will show it, people just have to understand what is happening now means nothing, its the electoral votes that gives you a president.

So we can argue all we want now, slam each other but if your favored candidate cannot hold these electorial votes then the democrats will lose this election.

This slow decomposition of the Clinton brand serves a greater purpose.

Little by little, all Americans are finally coming to understand how pathetic and dishonest the Clintons actually were all these years.

Like other con artists in history, the Clintons were masterful in weaving fact with fiction. Had Hillary not run, they could have dined out on their false but well-crafted image in perpetuity.

They have now pushed the envelope one too many times. In return, donors, intellectuals, the media, and now African Americans are finally aware how they've been manipulated and used all these years.

History will not be gentle with these two sociopaths.

Geez here we go again some of you just don't understand how the electorial college works, well that is very sad and it will be even sadder when you see the results of the GE.

Face the truth Hillary fans!

The democratic party has been hijacked by progressive (liberal) minorities. With their friends in the media, your poor candidate didn't have a chance. Honestly now, which alternative best suits your political disposition? Moderate republicans or elitist democrats bent on socializing the world.

Think hard!

Obama thinks he can replace Fl with mid-west states like COL. but if Romney is MCcain's vp the mid west is not that much in play you can't get by without two states it is a big risk he is taking.Four other states went ahead and they could of had a revote.

Michigan will be a blue state this year - it doesn't matter if it's Clinton, Obama or Pinocchio. The rest of the country talks about recession - we've been living through it. Our economy is the pits. The price of oil/gas is killing us not only on a daily basis, but because it is killing the auto industry. Home foreclosures here and falling property values. It's awful, really.

But most people around here don't complain, they just work harder because that is what Americans do. And any sitting President's party will fare poorly here in November - most of us blame George Bush. He doesn't talk to the big 3, his policies don't help Michigan and it seems that he has a grudge against us because John Engler couldn't make us a red state for him. So, John McCain may be a good guy but people here will vote their pocketbooks. McCain admits he doesn't know anything about the economy, offers a poor man's version of "i feel your pain", but so far comes across as insincere or incapable of fixing the problems we have.

Now, with that said, most of the problems we have our outside of any President's control. But the buck has to stop somewhere...

MIguy - I watched the same analysis by Russert. By expanding the map for the delegates, Obama has a realistic chance of winning even if he does not carry FL and OH.

McCain also has a realistic chance. I am looking forward to the General Election. It should be a spirited debate.

@Bishop and SJ:

Agree with you both. Ignoring the electoral college is perilous and John McCain's VP choice is a HUGE deal. I doubt he chooses Romney, because it hurts him with evangelicals. My guess is he chooses a bona fide right-winger to "balance" his ticket with Republicans.

As versed as you are in the electoral college, doesn't it strike you as odd that Senator Clinton basically skipped some states earlier? I think those of us that are watching this worry that she will pull an Al Gore and John Kerry and not campaign strongly in all 50 states. If she had campaigned more in the states she glossed over, then she would probably be leading now.

@Texas Voter:

It will be interesting - no doubt. My only hope is that no matter who wins, the country moves forward on solving the issues that are important. Although Senator McCain is likeable now, he will end up being a likeable guy who loses if he can't come up with concrete things he wants to change next year.

MIguy

If the president's influence is national, why is Michigan so far behind? Could it be you state government is inept? That wouldn't be surprising in a state that's heavily union oriented. Stands to reason that industry will go somewhere else.

That seems to be the story of your state. Government is mostly local and the blame starts locally.

MIguy - Well said. She ran as poorly run a campaign as I've seen in a long time. Remember, last year she was all but crowned the nominee. That, combined with the smart campaign run by Obama is ultimately what did her in.

MIguy - I agree. I like McCain because he is a centrist, and I like Obama because he is willing to work with the opposition, but political dogma is dogcrap this year. Show me what you are going to do. There will be very tough questions facing them both in the General Election.

Again, I look forward to it.

@Surelock Homes:

You're exactly right and you understood my innuendo at the end of my post. The problem in our state is our local government, it is the poor business decisions by the Big 3, and it is Congress' inability to pass meaningful legislation.

People ascribe too much power to the President. However, the President is the lightning rod irrespective of what they can or cannot do. The dissatisfaction people have here will come down on whomever is in charge. Don't get me wrong, I am not so naive as to think that changing one job will solve all of our problems - but most suspect that a change of perspective that comes with overhauling the Oval Office will bring something better than we have now.

It is interesting and I suppose that is why Dean is ticked I can't think after living in Ks Tx Co and now Ga that theese states would go blue. And that is a worry.

maybe some of you need a REMINDER that last October - before the primary's started - the Hillary Clinton signed the same pledge as ever other one of the candidates for the Democtratic presidential nomination

She said she knew these votes would not count

This country cannot afford another President who lies to us -

There is no conversation to be had

This is the plain, simple, irrefutable fact

After the nomination is settled either May 6th or June 7th - the MI and FL delegation will be seated when thay cannot and should not and will not impact the outcome of the democratic nomination

48 state managed to play by the rules -
what kind of a message is this to the country?

I get alot of you are shills and trolls - but come on - don't you have to look in the mirror every now and then?

Here's one crazy thing I think is already starting: President Bush/Cheney are actually now trying to get something done, rather than leaving the country a complete trainwreck for next year. Whatever you think of them, at least they are starting to try and get things done.

And I see seating them after is fair and balanced not

Those delegates from FL and MI will be seated at the convention and their voices will be heard. They just won't influence who the nominee will be, that's all.

Quit Hillary, there is no way to catch up and all this contorting to try get enough votes is just making you look like a win at all costs sort of person, and we already have one of those in the white House.

@Bishop:

Again, no disagreement with you. It will take some new math for Senator Obama to win. But it really comes down to who votes; in the 'contested' 2004 election only 55% of eligible voters actually voted. If one can swing this by a few percent in either direction, then it's anyone's ballgame.

MIguy - To your point, I think these two presumptive nominees change the political landscape. The Right Wing of the Republican Party was shown to lose its once vice like grip on the Party, and the Democrats have shown they can expand their base into Independents and moderate Republicans.

In essence, these two candidates will battle for the same votes. I personally think it's going to be one of the most substantive elections we've seen in a long time.

@SC4ME:

It would be foolish for her to quit before the Pennsylvania primary. If she wins by 20 points, she might end up winning the whole thing. If she wins by 5 points or less then it is really over. It will probably end up somewhere in the middle and then the other primaries become the next to voice their opinion. There is nothing wrong with this going on longer, so long as they limit the negative stuff against each other and ratchet the pressure up against McCain (two voices to his one is an advantage at this point that they are not playing up).