Irrespective of whether senseless murders occur with guns or not, we have become a nation so accepting of violence that it is a plague making our country unlivable for civilized people.

That is to say "It is a tragedy for any religion to come under attack"
See how that works in America?

Why did crime get worse in D.C.?
It can only be because the thugs obtained guns illegally. See? The shootings continued and law abiding citizens were at a disadvantage. See?
The thugs could easily see their prey were disadvantaged making the criminal mind even more confident and cocky while the law abiding citizen became less confident and more coward. See?
Can you see how this works?

Oh - I agree with some limited gun control - I definitely do not want anyone to test their nuclear toys.
I have already been there and disposed of that argument. Of course, we can't let everyone own nukes, we would have law and order by the group with the largest nukes.
But to test the theory that a gun ban would reduce crime and shootings, one only needs to look at D.C. There has been a gun ban there for many years now and year after year, shootings increased and crime only worsened.

foxism, that was an analogy.
Like, if America got rid of all it's aramaments the other countries wouldn't follow.

Ok, you want less gun control. I'll see your less gun control and raise you this: I'm a free American with the right to bear arms. I want those arms to be limited strategic nuclear weapon. I'm an American. I have my rights. When can I hit the firing range and test out my new toys?

Don't you think that nutjobs like this knew that it was highly unlikely that anyone in a church would be armed?
If I knew and fully understood that everyone around me was armed, I would certainly think twice about going bananas. I would suspect that more people would be a whole lot more likely to sit on their anger if they understood that to pull a gun would almost certainly mean instant death because anyone around them would take them out. I think everyone on this board has good hearts and good intentions to save the innocent from the nutjobs; we just differ on how to go about it. Honestly, I would feel more secure if everyone was armed. But, hey, everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.

Did you ever notice that after a shooting like this, they always want to take the guns away from those who didn't do it?"

Ever notice how the nut jobs come out after something like this and say everyone should be armed?==Mike,I think both sides are nutjobs.I dont thing EVERYONE should be armed,h3l that's what gun laws are for.However,I do think that any adult of sound mind,willing to take the training,and be licensed-should have the right to own one if they want one.

I can't say another word that will make my stand on this any more palatable to the pro-gun crowd than it already isn't palatable to. Let the whole country become armed and have a situation as it was today turn into a shooting gallery in a closed building if you like. But if anyone carrying shoots any member of my friends or family inadvertently and then tries to cop a plea that s/he was just trying to be a good Samaritan and "protect" me and mine, I will see this as a crime as great as any other and fight it through the courts as far as my rights and money will allow me to. There will be no excuses for harming or killing mine regardless of your intentions. That, or if I can find no justice there, perhaps I may may come to the realization as some of you folks have, that I need to purchase a gun and seek justice myself. Now is that the sort of world you genuinely wish to create and live in? Because it's coming.

The argument that the criminals would find a way to get them is 99% invalid if they are illegal===mapsguy.That theory doesn't take into account the fact that guns can be stolen and sold on a black market.Where do these guns come from?We are not an island,if guns are illegal in the USA that isn't a problem for an enterprising crimminal.The only way it works is if firearms are illegal across the board.That includes MILLITARY.How hard can it be for someone bent on killing to break into an armory?And there is NO WAY we can disarm our millitary.Besides, there are many cases of millitarty personell using guns to commit murder. We will never have that kind of Utopia in this country-not without a bloody revolution.And the blood would be spilled by-you guesed it- GUNS.Oh, to the guy who accused pro gun people of also beleiving that we also beleive gay marriage was /is an issue or that Saddam was resposible for 9-11?You assume too much.I beleive neither.

Unless you are the Almighty, you do not have the power to see the world as it really is. Many others see a totally different world from what you see.

of course heroin and drugs come in... there is huge PROFIT from them, and it is a bit easier to hide something without a metal signature. There will still be some, but they will be incredibly expensive. 85% of guns used in crimes are bought, not stolen. If you can't buy them legally, there will be less. I stand by having the crime follow the gun. Just for suicide, this is good.

I am happily married, make a crapload of money, and have beautiful children, why would I want to go off the deep end. I have a great life. I just happen to have the insight to see things as they really are and right now, things are not looking good for law abiding citizens.

Now mapsguy1955 writes: "The argument that the criminals would find a way to get them is 99% invalid if they are illegal."

Question #1 - Are Heroin and Opium illegal?

Question #2 - Can criminals find a way to get them?

"Don't you get it?"

I guess I don't - what is your definition of CRIME?

mapsguy:Yes fewer crimes commited WITH GUNS.But does that equal fewer crimes PERIOD?

"Did you ever notice that after a shooting like this, they always want to take the guns away from those who didn't do it?"

Ever notice how the nut jobs come out after something like this and say everyone should be armed?

First, my thoughts and prayers not only with the victims here but with the entire community.This is a tragedy that should not have happened.And no,I am not talking about guns vs no guns.That argument doesn't matter because if this guy was bent on killing, a knife would have worked,just ask the people in the UK.Remember the incident several months ago when an armed church goer PREVENTED a tragedy?People who have the mentality and will to kill will do so with whatever is at their disposal.Anyway, I wonder what he got and if he still has it? I am thiking he figured something out-or maybe THOUGHT he had.

foxism,

The history of the American West does not match the fiction with which we are all so familiar. At any given geographic location, the "Wild West" period lastly for no more than ten years, and much less in many cases. Yes, during the expansion the majority went armed almost all the time, but the horrendous "high noon" shootouts that our fiction has lead us to believe was common was, in fact, quite uncommon. Even the ones that did happen have been extremely exaggerated in the retelling; read the actual history of Tombstone and you'll find that even the famous Gunfight at the OK Corral wasn't what you have heard.

Here's some information Handgun Control, Inc doesn't want you to know: in nearly every state where citizens are allowed to carry concealed handgun violence has actually dropped. Specifically, the Bad Guys are still shooting at each other, but they are shooting at citizens much less; they never know who is carrying and will shoot back. Further, they don't want you to know that citizens wishing to carry concealed must first take a course on their state's laws and prove minimum proficiency with a handgun on the range, shooting at various distances; it is not a rubber-stamp arrangement. The only exception I know of is Vermont; in that state any citizen can carry without a license or having to ask anyone's permission.

Did you ever notice that after a shooting like this, they always want to take the guns away from those who didn't do it?

so... maybe that is right... or maybe cops are exempt... or maybe they should all just be illegal. The bottom line is that if there were fewer guns, there would be less crime committed with them. The argument that the criminals would find a way to get them is 99% invalid if they are illegal. It would be infinitely harder to get them and the ammunition they need. Because we have a malicious attitude and are increasingly polarized is exactly the reason NOT to have them.

Maybe a good reason to keep them might be to actually create that well regulated militia and return our government to what it is supposed to be: "of the people and for the people" (not for the corporations) Hence you can bring it to church but not work or government buildings. Don't you get it?

foxisms, if a doctor tells you you have a life-threatening tumor in your body, are you going to talk to it like a houseplant, feed it vitamin C, and seek aroma therapy and massage sessions, or are you going to find a surgeon to excise it so that the rest of your otherwise healthy body can heal and carry on?

Sami wrote, "Americans, be warned, these criminals are out there and they are ready to attack at any moment. It is up to us to arm ourselves and not be sitting ducks."

You are totally full of fear, aren't you?

I sit here shocked and dumbfounded on how many of you people have posted comments like: "If the people in the church were armed" I honestly try to understand how anyones mind could think in such ridiculous ways.

It goes to prove that many so called Christians are nothing of the sort.

But then again, I would bet the same people that think this way are also the same people that voted for Bush a 2nd time, actually think the Gay Marriage issue was actually an issue, believe Saddam had something to do with 9/11, and use the term Liberal Media at every opportunity.

I'm truely ashamed of my fellow countrymen..... People died and all you can get from your heart is "If They were better armed IN A CHURCH" gezzzzz shameful...

Aaron, if shooting it up in a church on Sunday morning doesn't qualify this guy (and approx. 11K others per year) for having some severe mental health problems which make it difficult (if not impossible) to help themselves I don't know what kind of qualifications you're looking for before we limit the sharp objects. We are living in a nut house, and the maddest of the mad are running it by allowing the free distribution of guns to the inmates. I'm sorry. I don't think everyone who advocates the possession of a gun is necessarily suffering from a mental disorder and especially not one of this scale and order. But we have enough people in this country that obviously do, and we are not helping the situation of their safety or our own to allow them creative ways to have easy access to guns.

Sami, Sami, Sami...would you want to be in an airplane at 30,000 feet after one or more people shot holes in it? I would not. No one would survive that crash.

I have flown many times and never needed a gun. I have gone to work, to church, to court houses, to grocery stores, to schools, to concerts, and many other places, and I have never needed a gun. I don't like guns and will not carry one. For you to say I'd wish for one is absurd because you don't know me.

Am I the only one to notice that these legislators who are bought and sold by the NRA and the weapons manufacturing lobbies, to ensure and allow the proliferation of guns and the right for citizens to carry them for protection or whatever reason in public... all voted in laws to not allow the free and armed citizenry to carry in courthouses, legislative buildings or any where they spend their days? But it's perfectly acceptable for people to acquire and carry guns in places where the average citizen worships, is educated and shops.
If these law makers are so keen on how safe it is, why do they out law guns where they work every day?

I don't have a problem with having a gun... just that it be licensed and that the licensee is responsible for any crime committed by that GUN, regardless of whose finger pulls the trigger. This covers suicides, borrowed or stolen weapons. It seems nobody wants to take responsibility for anything. It would seem to me, that this would make the vast majority of the the anti gun lobby happy. It would also show the integrity of the pro gun lobby, if they have any...Innocent people getting shot shows the ridiculousness of the argument.

Texans4Secede, I choose not to have weapons after losing 2 family members to gun violence. I don't believe more guns are the answer to our problems. You and Sami and other like you do. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.

To call me a coward because I choose not to carry a gun is an ignorant comment. You don't even know for sure how you would react in a similar situation, so can the bravado.

foxisms: Sanitoriums are facilities for people with long-term illness. If you are talking about mental health facilities, those should be reserved for the feeble, the infirm, or those that cannot help themselves, such as those with debilitating birth defects. There are also care facilities specifically for handicapped people and for the elderly.

In my opinion, there is NO PLACE for those that wantonly kill. The threat must be removed.

Dave, you and I will never agree on this. We both know that. But other countries have done away with the quick access to fire arms and their death tolls, (some of them) are in the double and low triple digits. England, Canada just to name two bear out that removing guns can indeed have a dramatic affect on lowering instances such as that in Knoxville. Sure, we won't eliminate all of the instances. But the findings of other civilized countries also bears out that it does have an major positive impact. Why do we as Americans feel when it comes to either guns or health care we need to reinvent the wheel when other countries have already cleared the path for us? As for melting down our weapons and worrying about other countries doing the same, I didn't realize this guy in Knoxville, the kids at Columbine and all the other perps of the recent (3-4 year) spate of public shootings were foreigners and from other countries. So that concern went right over my head.

Why is this debate about gun control rather than mental health? Yes, let's start arming our congregations instead of making sure sick people have access to psychological help - that's the answer.

One-trick ponies.....

Yeah - I'll bet the first thing MyfellowAmerican would long for in the same situation would be a gun.
Go figure.
It is the same mentality that we cannot let pilots have weapons. The liberals always say, "What if the pilot goes nuts?"
Well, in case you haven't noticed, the pilot has your body at 37,000 feet in the air. If he or she goes bananas, you're screwed with or without a gun! DUH

It wasn't the shooters rights who we protect, it is the rights of those killed in the church. We have gone so far left, that we are now sitting ducks -- even in church. It is a fact that criminals and their kind do not obtain guns legally. They get them from the black market. Making guns illegal would only make a bigger market for pushing illegal guns. Like it or not, but the price of your freedom came at the deaths of gun-toting soldiers and continue to keep America free. We can give up our guns and become sitting ducks or we can reverse many years of liberalism that has led down this path to innocent citizens being slaughtered in our schools and churches.

More guns are NOT the answer.
Posted by: MyFellowAmericans | Jul 27, 2008 2:14:59 PM

You have the right NOT to bear arms. If you and your family were in that church, you could just lay there and watch a madman shoot at your family. I choose to pull out a weapon and try to help the deranged man go before his God for judgment.

foxism it still doesn't make sense to take guns away from law abidng citizens because criminals use them. Guns are for protection. If we melt down all our weapons do you think all the other countries will do likewise? That's the logic gun control advocates seem to believe.

D - every single Supreme Court Justice disagrees with your opinion. Even though there was dissent in the level at which government can restrict gun ownership, in the Heller decision, they all acknowledged the 'individual' right to bear arms.

You are correct, "There is NO protection or prevention for people that go off the deep end." At the same time, you can make it less likely for them to hurt themselves or others with things. That's why in sanatoriums they only let them have access to spoons and rounded objects. You wouldn't want them packing. And if the metaphor escapes you, when we live in a country where people all too often open fire in public churches and schools, you may want to accept the fact that we live in a place with a bunch of people that are candidates for said sanatorium.

Sami wrote, "The point you're missing is that when everyone is armed, decent people end up killing the scumbags like the one that started shooting in this church. So you see, the decent people in the church who could have been armed could have taken out this scumbag before he maimed and killed 7 people."

You argument presumes that:
- every person in the church is armed with a weapon that is immediately ready for firing
- every one of these people is a crack shot so that they will hit the gunman and no one else
- the bullets fired will stop in the gunman's body and not go through to hit someone else
- everyone will stay calm when the shooting erupts
- everyone has hair-trigger responses to start shooting the gunman the millisecond he opens fire.

The odds of these things happening are about as high as me becoming the next king/queen of England.

More guns are NOT the answer.

Quote: "You suggest genocide and then you call yourself decent?"

Apparently, you don't understand the definition of Genocide.

No, what I support is the quick execution of ANYONE caught committing deplorable crimes against others.

That is decent and just. We all have 60 - 70 years on this planet if we're lucky; take away someone's existence and you're own should be forfeit. That's how I feel.

Sami...this guy in Knoxville didn't even attempt to take on the people in this church with his bare hands, nor any of the other potential weapons you mentioned. Coincidence? No. He used a gun. A very real weapon that is primarily created for no other purpose than being a weapon and he used it as it is unfortunately but primarily created for...to shoot some one or some thing. There's no other worldly purpose for a gun. A knife, a bottle, a rope even baseball bats have primary uses that do not involve assault. The only primary purpose for a gun is that of an assault weapon. You can give up that argument. It's empty.

FBI says guns kill 11k per year, how about autos that kill 55k per year and main several million each year.

foxisms: Your comment appeared to be well-meaning and had a little bit of forethought in it. The only problem is it just shows how narrow-minded you are.

Well, they outlawed drugs and guess what? People still get em. Do gun control advocates really think things would be different with guns? If criminals knew no one had guns they'd be robbing every house on the street.

I recall my son belonging to a church in the panhandle of Florida. This was a Baptist (Free Will) church and the kids all did an Autumn skit and several of the kids brought in firearms as props. That was the last day my son went. I am absolutely certain that Jesus would have been a gun toter (sic). This needs to be publicized. Guns + Religion = Hypocrisy.

Another stupid scuzzball with a gun. I'm sure the pro-gun lobby is happy that his rights weren't violated.

Sami: I won't try to change your mind, as you won't change mine. So I guess we agree to disagree, but I appreciate the fact that your response was pertinent and civil. I know we both mourn the losses.

There is NO protection or prevention for people that go off the deep end. Dementia and lunacy exist to some degree in all societies. Easy enough to erase these aberrants once they expose themselves, but there is always those of us who would rather lock them away and look after them.

These same people should be asking themselves: "why do I value a criminal's rights MORE than those of innocent, law-abiding people?"

At some point, there may be MILLIONS of murderers, rapists and lunatics incarcerated, and we will go broke trying to tend to them all; this cancer among us needs to be put to death so that decent people can live lives in as normal a way as possible.

Just for the record, Knoxville is on Eastern time, not Central, as was reported here. The shooting occurred at 10.20 AM EDT, not CT. (I know because I live in Knoxville, and was just down the street at my own church when I heard about it).

It's idiotic to even imply that people should strap on a gun as a prerequisite to attending a Christian church that preaches and practices peace, mercy and forgiveness as a means of remedy in these tragic and repeated cases of people randomly shooting other people with guns in public places. Even a brief look at American history will show anyone that the American west was built on the right to bear and carry arms and a good percentage of the people in most every town were armed on Main St., daily. It solved nothing. This is why those "rights" and privileges were legally revoked in the first place. Now, with the influence of the NRA and the weapons manufacturers, people who enjoy the false sense of security they seek think we should return to those times as though no one was shot down in cold blood at high noon and there were no innocent bystanders caught in a cross fire in the mid 1800's? Learn something from history, would' ya??!!

foxisms...as futile as it is to argue with someone who gets their opinions from the liberal media, I would just like to point out how redundant it is to say that "guns kill people." Of course they do, they are weapons, as well as tools (used for militia and hunting purposes).
But just because one or 11,000 wack-jobs go off and use these tools to fulfill their own sick pleasures at the expense of law abiding citizens doesn't mean that the tools are evil. It's tragic what has happened to day, and what happens everyday, but instead of cursing the tool, curse those who use them to harm others.
Making firearms illegal won't make them go away.

It is people that kill people; be it with guns, knives, rope, baseball bats, broken glass chards, whatever. We have to avoid giving life to inanimate objects. DUH!

The point you're missing is that when everyone is armed, decent people end up killing the scumbags like the one that started shooting in this church. So you see, the decent people in the church who could have been armed could have taken out this scumbag before he maimed and killed 7 people.

btw, if you read the right to bear arms, it is for the purpose of the possible necessity of a militia, not so we can blow each other away and "protect our property". My opinion, if you want to own a gun then you should be part of a draft. The country goes to war, you go to war. That's really what the right to bear arms is about. Anyway, this is a sad ridiculous story - ridiculous in the sens that, what's going on with people? So let's quit with the damn liberal/conservative/democratic/republican rhetoric just for a second! This type of thinking is what is dividing this country.

America is in love with its guns.
And its killing you people.

Gee, if only there were some kind of gun law preventing this lunatic from opening fire in a church full of children... I'll bet he would have thought twice about it!! Right??

What do you expect? This is the price of freedom.

Another senseless crime by an unstable person. However, this is not a reflection of the million plus citizens that properly, safely, and legally possess guns for personal defense and hunting purposes. Honest, mentally stable, law abiding citizens wouldn't committ such morbid crimes. Odds are the person that did this had previously exhibited warning signs that people ignored...

Great point Sami: what if the church members had been armed. Let's turn every church in the country into a free-fire zone, as God intended.

This is truly sad but I wonder how long it will be before Obama and other liberals use this tragedy for political gain.
I bet within 24 to 48 hours democrats will make their usually senseless argument for more gun control. I wonder how many church members were armed and how many less deaths would have occurred had the members been armed.

So sad, this country voted Bush into office twice and like their guns. I love my country, but sometimes I feel like I don't belong here.

This is yet one more tragic shame in a country supposedly at peace that tallies approximately 11,000 homicides per year where guns are used, according to FBI published statistics. So before the "guns don't kill people" crowd start defending the existing laws which are funded and supported by and for the NRA and the arms and ammunition industries...let me just say, yes they do.

Why would we ever want to hurt any children

The Knoxville news is now reporting that one person is dead, no children were shot and the suspect has been taken into custody and described as a man with blond hair looking to be in his mid-40's.

Good Lord, Let's pray that no one dies and the shooter gets locked up for a long, long time.

If someone dies and no mental defects are found within the shooter... Let justice be done...

Any motive yet? Why would someone want to harm children???

What is wrong with people? How tragic.