Realty Check
Tough talk on all things housing -- booms, busts, bargains and more -- from "Nightline" correspondent Vicki Mabrey
Vicki Mabrey is a correspondent for "Nightline" based in New York. She covers real estate as well as a range of national stories.
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Secondhand Timeshares
November 14, 2008 10:49 PM
Lo those many months ago I wrote about my Aunt Liz's rude awakening when she tried to sell her timeshare -- the one she and her late husband purchased four years ago for more than $50,000... which we've discovered is now worth.... about one-tenth of that. If she's lucky.
While researching ways to sell her timeshare I came across Brian Rogers, who runs the Timeshare Users Group website, an online bulletin board for timeshare owners. Earlier this week we went to Jacksonville, Florida to interview Brian, to turn this into a piece for Nightline.
"It's not that people are unhappy with timeshares," he says. "It's just that they later learn down the road when they try to sell it that their timeshare is worth next to nothing or nowhere near what they paid for it. Anywhere from a 50% to 99% depreciation."
Breathtaking. And, it turns out, most timeshares are 'deeded,' meaning you own them until you sell them, just like a house. So they must be passed on to your heirs when you die, just like a house. With all the attendant maintenance fees and taxes, just like a house. Only maybe, hopefully, your house has appreciated in value, while the timeshare just lies there dormant.
Tallking with Howard Nussbaum and Lou Ann Burney of the American Resort Developers Association (ASDA) shows me that I'm thinking about timeshares all wrong. They should NOT be purchased as a financial investment, Nussbaum tells me, and you'll be in for a jolt if you think you'll get your money back when you tire of it. "Think of it like an automobile," he says. "You buy it to use. It does have some residual value, you can sell it later, but it's going to be depreciated. Its value comes from use." Beware of sales pitches that say otherwise, he adds. "An ethical seller would not say it's an investment," according to Nussbaum.
Lou Ann Burney tells me, "It's a 'use' product, not sold or intended to be a real estate investment." Howard Nussbaum asks if I expect to get a financial return from any vacation I take -- do I return from my trip and expect to see my bank account fattened because of it? Um, no. Well, he says, that's what a timeshare is like. "It's a lifestyle investment with an enjoyment dividend, if I want to be cute about it."
Timeshare owners may not make money on their units, but the industry pulled in $10.6 billion dollars last year. In 2007, the average price of a two-bedroom unit that sleeps 6 was just over $19,000, with maintenance fees averaging $550 per year. Over the course of ten years, Nussbaum helpfully points out, the owner of that 'average' timeshare would have spent $25,500 on it. Imagine, he says, if the same person had stayed in a hotel at $300 a night and eaten 21 meals out in the course of that vacation week. He or she would have spent about $42,000 over those ten years. "It's a better way to vacation," says Nussbaum, quoting the ARDA slogan.
According to ARDA statistics from its consumer advice website, timeshares have an 85% satisfaction rate. But are there people for whom timeshares just do not work? Plenty. "If you don't take annual vacations, or your idea of vacation is sleeping on Grandma's sofa, then timeshares aren't for you," Nussbaum says. Just ask Nancie Boggs, my cousin Leigh's cousin, who agreed to be interviewed for our story. She's owned two timeshares, one on Maui and another in Cancun. Maui sold for close to the original price when she listed it, but Cancun... Well, that was another story. After a hurricane damaged the property in 2000, the development raised maintenance fees -- Boggs says her $150 a month payment jumped to $500 a month. She tried to sell her week but got no takers. Tried to give it to a charity. No, thanks. She finally paid a company $2000 to take it off her hands.
"It turned out to be a horrible waste of my money," she says. "I would have done just as well to take a stack of money and just light a match to it."
Brian Rogers' solution is for potential buyers to do what he did: buy secondhand. People (like Nancie) who want out are generally pretty desperate, and, as Howard Nussbaum delicately puts it, "The resale market is not as mature as the primary market." Meaning, there are lots of units listed on sites such as Ebay or TUG or Redweek.com or even Craigslist, to name a few. It may seem too good to be true (and you should vet carefully before signing or paying anything) but you can find the same thing someone else paid thousands of dollars for listed at a fraction of the original price.
November 14, 2008 | Permalink | User Comments (21)
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Guess what! My nephew bought a nice Florida time share on EBay for $1.00!
Yes! $1.00
Incredible.
Posted by: Sandra | Nov 14, 2008 11:47:05 PM
My nephew bought a nice timeshare in Florida on EBay for a measly $1.00!
Posted by: Sandra | Nov 14, 2008 11:48:51 PM
Try placing a family of 6 into 2-3 hotel rooms in peak season during a vacation. It's very-very expensive, not pleasent and a total waste of my $$. 100% total waste of money. It's really about quality of life and my family time together..in excellent facalties (Marriott!). No, it's not about making money but quality of life. After its paid off you have to maintain it. Where else can I get my family of 6 into a 2 bedroom, 2 bath, 1,200 "villa" for about $150.00 a night oceanfront??? You can't! Timeshare isn't for everyone but it does make sense at a reasonable price for most even with the maintenance fee.
Posted by: George | Nov 15, 2008 12:02:54 AM
You did not present any info tonight that I or any other potential sellers have not found out for ourselves.
I would like to know if and what the penalties are for defaulting on the maintenance payments.
My elderly father has been trying to DUMP his timeshare for years.
My advise to anyone considering buying one is DONT!
And to those of you who have bought one for $1, what to they say about someting that seems too good to be true ....?
Posted by: Marlene | Nov 15, 2008 12:10:06 AM
my name is craig,i work in the timeshare industry in orlando,fl. & yes as much as i might not agree with the maintenence fee & taxes the end result thaat most people that want to go to some of the vacations that they want to go on, they could never do so without ripping their wallets in half. timeshares are not meant for the purpose of getting rich or wealthy, they are investment to your love ones that at least you will spend at least one week a year with them.without the internet or the cell phone,it helps people & families get back to what is important & that is qaulity time that can,t be changed or reimbursed later on in time.i think people get a bad image about timeshare due to what a couple people say,but ask those same people where they own at it is probably some 1 bedroom unit in north dakota at the worst time of the year when nobody wants to travel there so of course they haveno trading power.it all goes by where you own what you own what time of the year you own & how big of a unit you own that is what gives you your trading power.
Posted by: craig hauze | Nov 15, 2008 12:22:28 AM
Has anyone had a good experience with selling one?
Posted by: Miz | Nov 15, 2008 12:24:25 AM
As far as I am concerned all this timeshare stuff is a very good example of a seriously skewed interpretation of "capitalism": one in which "everyone has the right to get rich - subtext no matter how". We all thought that slavery ended in the 19th century but we were wrong. It turns out that a well-meaning relative can "bequeath" one of these timeshare monstrosities to an innocent relative. Often no one is aware of the horrible impact it can have on the relative's finances who must then at a minimum pay yearly dues and fees, on something that may rarely if ever be used, and yet have no viable way to get out from under it. My father casually and with good intent signed over his campgound timeshare to me one day. I figured it couldn't hurt. Boy was I IGNORANT!!! I may have used it twice in the very beginning but I have never had an RV so it wasn't really something I needed. Nevertheless for years I was hounded like a criminal. I finally just told them where to stick it. I still get letters from attorneys saying they are going to sue me. Hey, my kids were already grown BEFORE my dad gave it to me, I'm divorced and now I'm living on limited retirement income. There truly needs to be a law to keep people from being burdened like this without their full and complete understanding of what it entails. The fact that this kind of debt is passed on, especially since it is virtually unsaleable, makes it a form of slavery.
Posted by: Jan | Nov 15, 2008 12:31:12 AM
the bottom line is people will always find something to complain about,if you them the option. people now a days want everything for nothing. did anyone ever realize how those people got in their to get a timeshare. they came in with the assumptionthat they were going to get tickets or a cruise for free. what is the one thing we tell our kids growing up.NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE but you can,t beleive how many muchez i see on a weekly basis that think we are business to give free disney tickets just cause they are vacation. & these aren,t kids they are grown people with kids so instead of complaining about timeshare you should ask those people there is a reason why they bolt the t.v,s down in the hotel. so in my opinion any parents that would rather put their kids in a bug infested small 6 by 10 room instead of a timeshare cause they are too cheap to give them a qaulity vacation should not take them on one & for the love of god why would you bring your kids to a presentation anyway all your teaching them is that it is o.k to musch cause that is how mommy & daddy give you your vacation, that you always dream of & you can do the same thing when you grow up. it,s sad.
Posted by: craig hauze | Nov 15, 2008 12:33:19 AM
buy resale, save $10,000
the TUG website has been helping people make the most of their timeshares free of charge (even if that means selling it) for over 15 years!
The number one issue with trying to sell your timeshare resale is coming up with an accurate price for it. It is unreasonable to expect to get anywhere near what you paid for it new. Most people are VERY lucky to even get 50 cents on the dollar, and in some cases are forced to sell it for a single dollar in the hopes someone will take it from them. Remember even if you give it to a charity...the charity still has to sell it too!
Posted by: TUG | Nov 15, 2008 12:38:17 AM
Craig, we (a middle class family of four who do not own a timeshare) go on a quality vacation every year, sometimes twice a year, anywhere we want. We don't have to worry, as my father does, about booking his peak week in the luxurious 2 bedroom shore resort he "co-owns" with hundreds of other people, because someone else booked it earlier. I certainly don't want his burden passed down to me. Thus, I will take the advice of the gentleman representing TUG and see if they can steer my dad in the right direction.
Posted by: Marlene | Nov 15, 2008 1:25:07 AM
and remember, the VAST majority of the information on the TUG website is 100% free of charge and open to the public. TUG is a self help organization composed of timeshare owners, volunteers and experts. All of the information you need to know is available on the site with ZERO cost to anyone.
Posted by: TUG | Nov 15, 2008 1:35:28 AM
Perhaps this explains why I am happy with my timeshare: I did not buy it as an "investment" but rather as something to use for enjoyment and it has definitely given me that. I paid much less than $20,000 for a Hawaii timeshare with Marriott & have used it all over the place & stayed in beautiful properties I probably otherwise would not have been able to afford. I've also gifted weeks to loved ones before. I'm one for whom it worked.
Posted by: Jana | Nov 16, 2008 11:52:02 AM
There are different types of timeshares. When we first bought our timeshare, we owned our "week" and were quite happy with it. Then while on vacation though our timeshare, we finally gave in and attended one of the presentations held by Bluegreen (our timeshare company), so they would stop stalking us all week. A slick salesman convinced us to switch to the points system. Unfortunately, we did. The problem: the total points it takes to stay anywhere decent keep increasing and unless you continue to purchase more points, you don't qualify to stay anywhere. I would advise anyone NOT to make the same mistake we did. I just want out. I don't want to profit. I want to be done.
Posted by: Denni | Nov 17, 2008 2:16:51 PM
To the whiner in the time share industry who laments parents bringing their kids to the sales pitch, you've got to be kidding. I've sat through the sales pitch a couple of times with no intention of buying. The person who signed me up knew that. I have no regrets about it. Just like you have no regrets selling a timeshare to someone knowing it can be bought on the second hand market for a tiny fraction of the price you are selling it for.
I did the math and figured out that timeshares are not worth it to me. The timeshares are not always available where we want to go on vacation. Also, when they give you the sales pitch they add up the total cost of your vacation and use the number to compare it to the cost of the timeshare. It's as if the timeshare included meals and airfare, which it obviously doesn't.
Posted by: Alex | Nov 18, 2008 2:43:44 PM
I have my doubts as to the accuracy of Nancy Boggs statements.. While special assessments aren't uncommon for beachfront timeshares- I have never heard of an assessment of $4,200 ($350 per month times 12 months)... Perhaps a bit of exaggeration!
Timeshares can be a great way to vacation but you have to use them to get any value.. And buy resale!
Posted by: Rich | Nov 19, 2008 3:09:20 PM
Great segment. I wouldn't know about all these pitfall, if not because of the podcast and this story!
Posted by: kelvin | Nov 19, 2008 5:53:44 PM
I own four timeshares. All of them with Wyndham. They are amazing! I love it and would never be able to afford to go to the places I've been if it hadn't been for Wyndham.
Economy what? I'm still traveling and loving it! It was the best investment I've made in myself and I will never have to worry about resale because I will NEVER sell it. It has done wonders!
Keep up the good work Wyndham!
Posted by: Joe | Nov 20, 2008 4:01:05 AM
Nothing in the story is critical on the actual properties themselves, many if not all timeshares are extremely nice and provide fantastic vacations.
Quality is certainly not the issue at all.
The disparity between the resale price, and the retail price is however. Even in your beloved resort...you can still buy it on the resale market for pennies on the dollar.
In fact the reporters aunt's timeshare, which caused this entire piece...was a wyndham timeshare if im not mistaken.
Paid $55k new, lucky to get $5k resale.
Posted by: TUG | Nov 23, 2008 7:01:13 PM
You are missing teh biggest part of the point here. A deeded timeshare will always fetch more on resale, and like general real estate, it depends on where you own.
If you own outside Cleveland, well, don't worry about capital gains screwing up your taxes, but if you own at a quality resort, deeded, in Hawaii, you investment is safer. Look it up before you pidgeon-hole all timeshares as "bad resale".
Extemely ignorant article. I can sell my timeshare in Hawaii for what i paid 5 years ago.
Posted by: JSpicoli | Nov 29, 2008 7:32:54 PM
Craig Hauze-- I'm actually looking for a good timeshare group in the Orlando area which one do you work for. Do you have a phone number I could contact someone to plan a tour. I'm from Wyoming and will be traveling out there first of next year.
Jim
Posted by: Jim | Dec 2, 2008 11:23:21 AM
I bought a timeshare in South Africa in 1999 after spending many months on TUG reading what other people were saying about how, where and when to buy timeshare.. My first unit at Dikhololo in SA cost $1600 with maintenance fees of R1380. or $138.00 US at the time.. (R=South African Rand)Our MF now are running some R1834. Not bad for almost 10yrs. We use our week for trading into Orlando, Williamsburg and other popular spots with little trouble. Why,, they are overbuilt with timeshare. Not a good place to buy for that reason. Can we trade into east-coast summer locations, its hard but sometimes you get lucky. If you want to take a vacation every year and stay in nice locations I suggest you join TUG ($10 per year) and read and learn. It has saved me thousands of dollars and provided many happy memories for my family.. TUG2.net
is the place.
Posted by: Carl | Dec 15, 2008 5:54:47 PM
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