Law and Justice. There is no such thing as a terrorist suspect. A person is innocent until proven guilty. A victim of rape is not permanently harmed. The right for a person to have their day in court prior to any form of punishment is about protecting us from our own governments, just because they say so, is not enough, they must prove it in a court of law.

So they've pared the "12 steps" down to six..hmmm. Maybe Brian or somebody in the adm. would like to try it so they can speak from first hand knowledge as to wheather it is torture or not. Any volunteers?

Do we need to be strong as nation? of course, but strength is expressed in a variety of ways. There is a giant of a guy in the neighborhood and nobody messes with him but you never met a friendlier person, and he doesn't have to prove anything to anybody.

So here is a crazy idea that sometimes works..why not try to talk to some of these leaders that control terrorists. When we saw that we were not getting anywhere militarily we talked to the russians, the chinese, the vietnamese, and a majority of people, even the generals, don't believe that the fight against terrorism can be won just militarily. The Brits didn't do much with the IRA until they came to some agreement. It's worth a try and we don't demean ourselves by doing it.

What we should worry about is that all these measures the government has appropiated for itself to combat percieved threats (torture, surveilance, wiretaps, secret home invasions etc.), could someday be used against any citizen since a terrorist is anyone that they say is a terrorist. So we have to be careful that we're not in the wrong place at the wrong time for the wrong reason. It doesn't inspire much confidence when any question of inquiry that is asked gets the same reply...It's SECRET.

Torture has long been proven to be ineffective and produces nothing more than untruths, severe discomfort and/or death. There has been no due process for those held in limbo in the black hole called Gitmo. Bush is a pathological liar. He says they're terrorists and has decided to become their judge and executioner. Let's see the evidence he has before we fall for another of his lies. This is all about saving his own behind from prosecution for war crimes once he is out of power.

If I were even so much as slapped by an individual cloaked in the guise of a "decent" American "conservative" citizen "helping protect the 'freedom' of his fellow Americans", I would quite frankly wish to kill that so-called person of "dignity" who has slapped me, his not knowing I was innocent of any terroristic intents. The wish for revenge against such perpetrators is "NORMAL", and would eventually be wreaked by those, or on behalf of those who have struck people in the course of interrogation. I say to you scum who intend such very un-American harsh "techniques", that you will ultimately not be free from prosecution, no matter the law. Someone, somewhere, will get you, *BIG-TIME!* Many of us consider such actions by persons in authority as an abuse of same, and will punish these actions as *assault* causing bodily harm

We've been TOLD that torture gained important information and saved lives. But a fact check of the cases Bush cited proved that the information was already known PRIOR TO capture of most of these suspects, and in at least one case, a false confession was made that the president used in fanning the flames for war in Iraq. All the torture in the world will not gain enough information to protect Americans when our government is busily creating more enemies than we can kill.

The debate against torture is NOT about who is being tortured or why. It is about us, it is about America, it is about who we are and what we stand for. We've tortured a number of innocent men, some of them to death. That cannot be undone. If we are now willing to become as sadistic and totalitarian as our enemy, demanding that other nations change themselves to suit us and our national interests, then Bin Laden has already won and no amount of money or firepower will rescue any kind of victory worth having.

And remember, all the power that's been put in the hands of one man, George W. Bush---the power to define torture according to his political agenda, the power to arrest and detain suspects indefinitely, without charges, or lawyers, or court access, the power to eavesdrop on any and all Americans without a warrant...all this power will one day be in someone else's hands, not George Bush, maybe not a Republican, maybe not even a Democrat, maybe in the hands of a neo-Willie Stark. This power will not always be used judiciously against real enemies; it has already been used against the innocent. This power invites abuse because it is power without restraint, without judicial or legislative review. This was our Founding Fathers' worst nightmare, and it is hard to believe that it is Americans themselves that have so thoroughly corrupted the honor and morality of the American Dream they fought and died for.

Brian ...

If you care at all about America,
investigate this legislation and it's implications fully,
as it goes Far beyond the somewhat trivial use mentioned above.

This legislation should scare the hell out of you, and all Americans.

Use the Vast Power you all (in the Media) have of informing & educating the public,
(to influence outcome contructively), to collectively use Truth as propoganda about this legislation.

Conspire with other News Organizations if necessary to create an immidiate Informed public uproar against this legislation, (in it's present form).

Why are you idiots continually bringing up constitutional rights and "cruel and unusual punishment" These are not Americans, these criminal terrorists are not covered by either the geneva convention nor the constitution. They have no rights .. they gave up any claim to supposed rights when they joined an organization that blew up the twin towers and sentenced those people to death without due process, and sentenced untold numbers that will suffer health issues and a decreased quality of life. Why should they enjoy rights and privilages that they deny others ...

I have been here in Iraq for three years now ... Frankly, I don't think the bill goes far enough in allowing stuff. We will never win this until we allow the intel services and the military to have the biggest stick

"Rights" are brought up because we are a nation of "LAWS". Can it be that people are idiots for believing this? Many have died for this truth. Should we scrap our laws when we think that they don't work for us? Who wants to live in a totalitarian state?
The people 230 yrs ago believed that everybody should have their day in court. In this country even murderers and rapists have this right. Why? It turns out that some of them were found to be innocent.

Incidently, for all the Faithful, in the Good Book it says: "...the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you".

A greater danger is that living under one-party rule as we do today is a recipe for disaster because it is easier to get some very bad laws passed, laws that can come back to haunt us.

Funny how those who condemn torture now were so silent during the Berg beheading and other atrocities so gleefully broadcast by the MSM.

This sums it up -
Kudos to the one who posted this...

"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was legal."

Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Those who do not remember the past are condemed to repeat it..."

If you are naive enough to think that if we don't torture others we will not be tortured you do not need to be posting anything relating to this article.

The terrorists we are dealing with are just that TERRORISTS they cannot survive as organizations unless they make big headlines and they do not make big headlines if they do not do flagrant acts of cruelty and violence.

I am torn about the whole "torture" thing. I am a member of the U.S. Army and I do not favor the idea of terrorists having an easy time while being interrogated. However, this must be controlled somehow. I do not think that there is a right answer to this. It is much more complicated than anyone might think.

I am also a veteran. There seems to be outrage about the way we treat terrorists and terrorist suspects. Where is the outrage when innocent civilians are kidnapped and beheaded by these extremist groups? There seems to be a huge double standard in this country.

Are you suggesting that we march on down to Cuba, grab a bunch of those guys and start chopping? That ought to send a message. But why stop there? Lets march on back and dig out some of our home-grown undesirables and do the same thing. Castro did that in Cuba and he hasn't had any domestic problems in 40 yrs.
Interestingly enough, the people that served in the Pacific in WW2 went through some very tough H... in fighting the enemy and yet their people appear to have been treated decently by us. Soon, we gave them millions, ten yrs. later, we're buying their cars, and we have been buying Japanese stuff ever since. Also, American tourists have been showing up in Vietnam for awhile now visiting the former enemy.
History sure is strange.
Humans are capable of great and terrible things and we should hope that both our enemies and our leaders decide to do what will bring real peace.

I cannot claim to be a veteran or serving in the forces, currently I am only a cadet.

Whilst I do not agree with the torture at all, I can understand why the US government thinks it is required...

I'm not going to get into a discussion about the torture itself, I think that's being handled well enough. I will say this however:

How do we know those being tortured are guilty? The US government is increasingly moving towards a "guilty until proven innocent" mentality. With people being imprisoned without trial or evidence... The line MUST be drawn somewhere or SUSPECTED but not proven terrorists will be tortured soon... and there is BOUND to be at least one mistake.

America is supposedly the land of the free. It isn't.

The question is, do you want to preserve your country by being viscious and tyranical, or do you want to lead the world into a better age by setting a good example?

Iain - England

I believe that anyone who votes for this bill will become an international war criminal as soon as a single person is terorized by the CIA. Remember, CIA agents are under indictment in Italy, and more will be in Germany soon. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld have already been classified as interntional war criminals by amnesty international.

torture 'em all