As I remember, just a few months ago, there was an issue about the dress code of the Air Marshals. They were "military" like people, and easily identified!
As far as I am concerned, they are goose-stepping government thugs, and need to have their leashes shortened.
I consider myself a Conservative Republican. I am also a retired military man.
This is where I part ways with this sort of government thinking.

I have flown in and out of DCA many times since the added security of the Air Marshal service. I have noticed them as I sit and wait for my flight. They approach the counter and identify themselves. Anyone paying any attention could spot them. I have boarded first in First Class and when I get on the aircraft there are 2 male individuals already seated. Of course, the air marshals were pre-boarded.

How long does it take to review some policies? We're not talking about the Oxford English Dictionary here.

Having spent 20 years in the military, I know that things can be slowwwwwwww. But this is ridiculous.

Also, given a difference of accounts between the air crew and some air marshalls, I'd go with the air crew version. I can't help but think there's a lot of arrogance about many air marshalls.

Why do air marshals need to be discreet in the first place? Let their presence be a detterent. I'd rather prevent an incident than have someone try to stop one that is already rolling.

If I was a serious terrorist, I would case the situation so as to identify the air marshals. Then I would know who to kill first, then I could carry out my plan. The air marshals must be given undercover status in order to be effective.

I am sure that there are abuses, since when you give some people power they do tend to take advantage of the situation. But I would most certainly rather fly with Air Marshalls on board then without them. Some of them might be jerks but they are hopefully prepared to stop another 9/11 from happening.

I concur with RRMorgan. Their presence would be a deterent. The mentality of US Citizens has changed dramatically since 911. Before that, we were instructed to remain passive and let the authorities handle it. Well they didn't do such a good job, so now the passengers are totally involved and probably better than the "cowboys" with the guns. Also, what if the bad guys impersonated an air marshall. They're not stupid.

Air Marshall's should never be identified, especially to the "stewardesses". It would be easy for a terrorist to infiltrate an airline and become a stewardess. It would be impossible for a terrorist to infiltrate the federal air marshall program. Talk about arrogant, these flying waitresses who demand to be called flight-attendants are incredibly ignorant people, in fact some jerk just kicked a mother and newborn off the plane because she was breast feeding her baby in the last seat of the plane with her husband at the aisle seat screening the view. The only person that should be informed of the identity is the Captain, Co-pilot and flight engineer the flying waitresses can't be trusted. It would also be better if the marshalls didn't look like Military types. Long haired hippie Marshalls would be much more covert.

for heaven's sake, i'm so tired of some of the egos on these people. so their paperwork wasn't proper? even their supervisor couldn't get them on the flight? auwe,let the air marshalls do their job

The fact is, that plane need an air marshall. Rememmber that passengers paid extra $ for its security. How dare you "flight crew" not letting them in even their supervisor said they were legit. Are the airline will make refund the money paid for this security service not receive? Common sense is needed flight crew!

I would tend to believe the Air Marshals story because I have flown on various airlines and it seems to me that it is somewhat difficult to get the flight crew to understand anything. I say the Air Marshals are doing their job to protect us, so let them do it however they see fit. Yes I agree that the Government did not do such a swell job of heading off 9-11, but neither did the airlines left to their own procedures. You can't always see something coming and even if you do sometimes you can't do anything until it happens. Lets give it a break and concentrate on the problem at hand: The airlines need to fly and the Air Marshals need to protect and the public needs to sit back and enjoy the ride.

According to FAA FAR 91.3 the captain or pilot in command is ultimately the final authority in the operation of an aircraft. In other words, the pilot in command has the final word regarding who gets to fly on his aircraft, period.

According to FAA FAR 91.3 the captain does get final word except for another little law that was passed that says Air Marshals cannot be refused flight. Punishment for refusing boarding is pretty hefty to airlines ans captain. Investigate if they receive the fine that is suppose to be imposed.

I personally will fly another airline if US Air does not like to protect it's passengers. Replace the pilot with someone who cares about the passengers.

The simple reason the Marshalls can't dress in an obvious or uniform manner is that we'd know just how few there are. They have been slowly reduced-in-force since 9/11, with no new slots for new hires. It was a band-aid situation, and, job satisfaction with the Marshalls was apparently also really really low. We will of course lower our guard (again) until we are struck (again). This is the pattern in the U.S....head-back-into-the-sand.

Its all very silly when you look at the big picture. I cant help but laugh about it! Its a battle between a failing airline industry, Alpha Male crew members, and Air Marshals having to deal with every airline having their own particular rules about boarding Air Marshals. It's a joke and a terrible shame. The European Union just gave permission for all their countries to allow EU and foreign Air Marshals to have authority in the air over entire EU. Originally they were very opposed to this but they changed their viewpoint on this issue. Why? because the threat reporting continually says airlines are still a high priority target. How do you say? Get a CLUE.

You know it's getting to the point where flight attendants need to be brought down a notch. They need to start doing their jobs and stop becoming "flight Nazis". Accomodating their pasangers and providing service (Passing out peanuts and sodas) is what they are there to do. If they don't like their jobs then leave.

Do you honestly think that if it were so easy for a terrorist to become a flight attendsnt that they would have done so already? Fact is the screening for Flight Attendants is very rigorous. Do you think the terrorists haven't already tried, and faild due to the level of screening so they have to try other avenues. Your Flight Attendant is responsible for your safety and if you are an unruly, cocky, arrogant person who is disrupting the flight, you are a security risk, and in some cases it is the senior flight attendant that will tell the Captain to divert a fligt for security reasons since they are the ones dealing with passengers. Try to be more respectful of your Flight Attendants, male and female, they are human as well and are doing the best they can for you during your flight.

If the comments by the airline are correct, I doubt that the Air Marshal's were at fault here.

The bit about "proper paperwork" is the tip-off. Sounds like an airline employee does not know the difference in processing an on duty Air Marshal, and an off duty Law Enforcement Officer who happens to be flying armed.

I am in complete agreement that changes need to be made for air marshals to conceal not only themselves, but where the "secret backpack" is kept on a flight. Last year I was on a full flight where the air marshal tried to be discreet in identifying himself to the flight crew, only to be seated in a jump seat at the back of the plane, and where the flight crew indiscreetly were announcing to one another where the air marshal's backpack (which anyone could only assume contained a firearm) was going to be stored during the flight!

As of this time and date flight attandants have no clue of the job description for which they are hired and pay to do;They are simply air maids. without exceptions, they consider themselves prima donnas and with the new security measurements in force they have been mistakenly over empowered by the airline industry to challenge, mistreat, remove and falsely accuse any cutomer who does not meet their profile for which there are no general guidelines other than the state of their sickening minds...with their employers having no chance to restore salaries and fringe benefits to pre 9/11 levels, the airlines have wisely used such empowerement as a motivating tool as well as way for this whining employee group to voice and discharge their frustration against no other than those guranteeing their job security. Under the current scenario, the order of authority on a commercial flight should be such that the captain will maintain and control the safety and security of the airplane, delegating the the security upon the air marshalls with the flight attendants limiting themselves to serving the customers and assisting, given their training, in safety related matters only.

No matter what you feel about the concept of air marshalls one thing is clear is they are easily identified likely "bad guys" they only serve a deterent if there are marshalls on every flight. There are some camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan that provide good training in how to blend in on an airline.

He said that the air marshals failed to identify themselves to the flight crew and submit the proper paperwork to notify the airline that they would be on board.
HELLO! The Federal Air Marshals DO NOT HAVE NOT FILL OUT ANY PAPERWORK!

Visual deterent? Hmmm...sounds like a double dipping former Secret Service, now Air Marshal, manager.
Of course the SS boys are a visual deterent. The Air Marshals ARE NOT.
The SS boys are ALWAYS around POTUS, The Air Marshals ARE NOT ON EVERY FLIGHT.
Would you use 4 or 5 SS boys to protect the president? NO WAY. Would you choose by lottery which presidential movements to use SS as security? NO
Concerning covert versus overt OPS; the two services are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Those who suggest the FAMs should be a visual deterent need to take a step back and look at the big picture.

I can't believe some of the arrogant; not to mention ignorant remarks made about flight attendants. Flight attendants, literally do the job of the air marshals without the security of any feasible weapons, while the captain and first officer are safely locked in the flight deck. In addition, those of you insulting flight attendants should realize....."when you are running down the aisle screaming because your ass is on fire....you will be very happy that the highly trained flight attendant is there to get those doors opened; and, the slides properly inflated." Note! The Captain and First Officer will already have left the plane through the flight deck windows. Also, if your mother or son have a heart attack or need emergency medical treatment.....will you think of flight attendants as waitresses or skymaids as they save your kids life? FLIGHT ATTENDANTS ARE THE NUMBER 1 REASON PASSENGERS SURVIVE CRASHES DURING LANDINGS AND TAKEOFFS. BOTTOM LINE! TRUTH! On 911, flight attendants were the very first to die doing their jobs; and, they were true heroes.....providing information to their bases and doing their jobs exactly as they had been trained. SHOW SOME RESPECT!!!!!

RRMorgan,

Think maybe one step further. Do you think the terrorists might just attack a flight when they can see there are NO FAMs? If they are out in the open - the terrorists know which plane to attack.

Gus - get a dictionary. Don't accuse someone of being arrogant when you cannot even spell their occupation. You must be an Air MARSHAL manager. The guys doing the job are not arrogant; it is only the managers.

I agree the sky wenches in this country are very strictly screened. They must have a posterior just small enough to fit down an aisle. They also are screened to make sure they are U.S. citizens in some cases. I hear many have GEDs or some form of massage or cosmetology training. I have only had them spill soda or wine on me a dozen or so times. My food is often as I ordered since they have two choices and my seat is numbered. (They take copious notes when serving.)

Bravo to those that pointed out how well flight attendants are trained to open doors, deploy automatic slides and service pilots as needed. You are very correct. They do all these things and try to chew gum at the same time. Some succeed.

The average Air Marshal may have somewhere between ten and twenty-five years of law enforcement, military special ops or other professional experience on top of their degrees. The FAMs I have met each had a Masters degree or law degree. Yes, a full J.D.

The managers of this organization are lucky to have a BA and mostly came from the SS. They are not exactly a law enforcement agency in the eyes of many. They spend most of their time in the FAMS wasting money and abusing their employees one way or the other. Maybe the Democrats will do something to stop the attrition in the FAMs. All the Air Marshals I met over the last few years are looking for a new job. They love the job, they just cannot stand the mismanagement and lack of intregrity of ex-SS personnel. They are also being worked into the ground with flight hours above the standards set by the FAA for pilots.

Oh yeah, many airlines see the FAMs as a pain and liability. Ask them about how much of a write-off they take for their seats on half empty planes. Also ask how thankful they will be the next time Atta's cousin decides to come after one of their aircraft and FAMs are aboard. The terrorists will get dispatched to hell by a rapid succession of booms from an Air Marshals' primary weapons system!

Thank God we have trained men willing to do this thankless job to protect the sheep of the country and the sky waitresses that serve them drinks.

I tend to believe the Air Marshal version easier than the Airborne Waitress Brigade, having considerable experience with both.

The Air Marshals are generally as discreet and unobtrusive as possible considering the stupid rules they have had to work under. They ain't dumb, and know their cover can save their lives and everyone else's.

The flying hash slingers, however, often have the IQ of a box of rocks and are more concerned with slavishly following the rules (as they feebly kind of understand them) instead of looking at the big picture. They stumble through their jobs believing that nothing can happen to them; the Air Marshals, however, assume that every flight is the one where something WILL happen.

The only down side of the Air Marshal program was that it was instituted under Clinton, and The Word came down very early that the Air Marshals were going to "look like America," and the target quotas were upon them with a vengeance. One friend of mine in one of the first classes watched one minority female trainee fail her short-range emergency shooting test repeatedly. The instructor kept pointing out to her that she couldn't keep closing her eyes when the big noise happened, but she kept doing it, time after time. She never passed that test, but was "pencil-qualified." Those of us with military time will recognize the term.

A year later this pathetic wench was an Air Marshal, based out of D.C., and most Air Marshals would check the schedules when their friends and family flew, to make sure this idiot wasn't their security blanket that day.

One would hope that things changed under Republican leadership, but I'd hate to bet cash money on it.

I have no problem when the "sky hags/waitresses" and other airport personnel check our credentials discreetly. It is nothing more than reaching into my pocket and showing them.

The problem is that many of these jealous poorly paid (deservingly so) individuals enjoy giving my fellow FAMS a hard time. It is some type of power trip for them and a sad one at that. The agency and Congress really need to address this and put their foot down. After all, would the average "law-abiding" citizen treat a cop disrespectfully? I think not. The cop would not put up with it and their agency would back the officer. Trust me, I know from experience!! Many years of it.

The majority have forgotten about 9-11 or are from locations not affected by it. It is time that the "sky hags" look at a few pictures of the Twin Towers collapsing and read (if they can) a book or two on the subject.

Undercover police officers all over this country would never divulge there identity's to non law enforcement personnel. If a narcotic officer is making a drug transaction in a restaurant do you think for one second the officer notify's the restaurant manager and waitressess first? Of course not. So why Sky marshals need to divulge there identity's to people who could compromise there identity and potentially get people hurt or killed is disturbing news. This is a no brain situation. Marshals should only ID themselves when there is a need to. Its that simple.

Great! The sky waitress wants to stop the federal agents from doing their job.

I hope they did not get written up, but from what I hear of the FAM program - the FAMs were probably disciplined for not doing exactly as the morons told them to do.

Do any of these people remember why the FAMs are around?

I wonder what the passengers thought of the group being ordered off the plane. As a LEO myself, had i been there, and understood what was taking place, I would have followed them off. "What -me worry?" Ohyea, big time.

I am not sure which side of this story I believe, but if the Marshals are their for our protection, I do not think it would have been that difficult for the airline or the captain to establish their credentials. I ususally travel first class on aircraft where it is available and a very very large percentage of the fight attendants I interact with are very polite and courteous. It is the smaller feeder airlines where I find the qulaity of both the ground staff and cabin crew lacking more often than not. I boarded a flight last Thursday (regonal jet) where the sole flight attendant pretended to greet passengers while chewing gum with her mouth open. If that is not a lack of class, I'm not sure what is.

i am a captain for one of the large u.s. airlines. the marshalls consume first class seats for which the airlines (to my knowledge) are not reimbursed. they also refuse to provide us with any information on terrorist activity or what they have been briefed on by homeland security. this makes their presence virtually useless. we, as crew members, have NO IDEA if the marshalls are on board for a specific reason (response to a threat) or just routine business.

one thing they do know well is how to consume first-class meals and make themselves at home.

what a farce, flight attendents not much better then pond scum. have big ego's with little reason. since p.c calls for hiring fat old one's and gay's they are a joke. they couldn't get a job in a high class dinner.

Every one should understand why the air marshals are there on the plane. Let them do their job and don't create problems for them by disclosing their identities please. They are there to protect the passengers and the crew members on board the flight. Can't we just get along for the sake of safety and security!

I would agree with kaye that a briefing should be in order between flight marshals and at least one on the crew, preferably the Captain or another cabin officer - as long as confidentiality is maintained, and such is codified into law.

The obvious solution to the problem is to make the sky marshalls airline employees/flight attendants as their cover...the terrorists would never suspect this...

Just to add my two cents. I worked at a major US airport for 9 years and have FAMS and airline staff as friends. I remember asking about who pays for these seats and was told the US gov't does. The airlines do not incur any costs with this program.
Of course the vast majority of personnel in both fields conduct themselves in a professional manner; but from my observations fligt attendants and crew sometimes "jump the gun" when throwing people off planes or calling the FBI for interfering with a flight crew. There is also resemtment against FAMS for having a perceived cushy job when airlines are cutting their wmployees wages, They forget the bailout of the airlines after 911.

Kaye, in my opinion they can have that first class seat and all the first class food they want. He or she is sitting up there to protect your whining butt, hopefully it will never happen and we will all have safe flights on your large u.s airline. I'm sure if that day ever comes, you won't be bitching so much after that. Now just shut up and do your job and fly the plane and let them do theirs.

To Kaye the major airline captain, I suggest she (I presume) not look to the FAM for a security briefing at boarding but rather interact with the airline union's safety and security group. I doubt seriously if Jason Dahl would have complained about a non-revenue seat for a FAM eating a meal in first class while Capt. Dahl (PIC on UAL93) was savagely murdered and I think we know the rest of the story. I hope I never have to fly on a plane with 'Kaye' on the flightdeck.

First comment is to Viniti Balboa,
As a licenced Massage Therapist, I take great offense to your putting my profession in a class akin to flight attendents. I'm a professional, with 1000+ hours of schooling under my belt.

Second comment is to the topic at hand. FAM need to be allowed to do thier job. but to follow a set of rules and regulations is to set a pattern for the bad guys to spot. How about some of them under cover, and some in plain site? Bring on the Long Haired Hippy Peacenick Air Marshal!

Third and last, why not allow training to the law abiding citizan with a carry permit, and allow them to carry onflight? They may not be former military (then again they might!) but neither are the police before they get thier training.

The people have a right to defend themselves, and a duty to defend thier country. Since the govt cant afford to cover every plane that leaves the ground, why not let the people who care about this country to pick up the slack?

This is nonsense....I have flown a lot of international flights and the air marshals are worthless....they show up when they feel like it...everyone I have encountered always made it very well known they were carrying a weapon and are afforded special treatment...I have seen these numb nutz delay the flight and then pack their firearm in the overhead bin.....I think it unlikely in the event of an in-flight emergency a terrorist, would permit an air marshal to leave his first class seat and walk to another section of the aircraft to retrieve his weapon....this "undercover" ruse is asinine...they should be in uniform and be expected to reflect the dignity of their position which they currently do not.....Anyone can spot them immediately just look for the fool with a third grade education who dresses like he just left a photo shoot for GQ.

Let me get this straight, the air marshals are ticked because they can't just walk on a plane without proving who they are, all the time holding weapons...OK, now just imagine if a nutcase with a half a brain cell, goes to board a plane, they just tell airline security they're an air marshal, that should get them any seat they want, hell, maybe even a jump seat in the cocpit, the air marshals have to have a foolproof system in place, I say the airline acted properly, give them a little bag a pretzels.

I have been a federal agent, including a special agent in charge, supervising up to forty criminal investigators, for 19 years. If you recall, soon after 9/11, Federal Air Marshals were highly welcomed passengers onboard aircraft. Just like the rest of the nation, as we get further away from that diasterous date, the air line industry and the traveling public, have come to be more concerned aircraft delays, airline service, and other non-security issues. All I am going to add is that when the day arrives, and trust me, it unfortunately will, when terrorists attack our nation again, the aforementioned minor concerns will shift, and the Air Marshals once again will be considered non-expendable, not just burdensome passengers taking up seats. Oh, Air Marshals don't do the paperwork regimen; so, the agents removed from the plane were probably other federal agents, like me. When armed, we have to fill out special documents and show our credentials and badge to the ticket counter, the gate counter, and the pilot and crew. Each gets a copy of the form we fill out.

This is for BJM, posted at 2:32:06 PM. I am a federal agent and routinely travel in and out of DCA and IAD. First, I tend to doubt your various accounts of dealing with Federal Air Marshals. However, assuming you saw "anyone" exposing a firearm onboard the aircraft, you should inform a member of the crew what you observed. I am authorized to carry a weapon when I travel via aircraft. I assure you, it is a violation of TSA, FAA, and airline industry policy for agents to expose their firearm. I am certain you would be interviewed by the agent's employing federal agency's internal affairs division, and that agent would be disciplined. In an effort to educate you further, federal agents must have at least a four-year college degree (I completed graduate studies with a 3.7 GPA earning a master's degree); pass stringent medical and physical fitness exams; undergo a background investigation qualifying the agent to possess at least a Top Secret Clearance, and conduct themselves in a manner completely opposite to the description you present in your remarks. Personally, I think you are probably jealous, wish you were a federal agent, and sad that you did something in your past that disqualifies you for an agent position.

How is it that we give such authority to the stewardesses and not to the captain. If an issue aroze they would be the first to cry for the air marshalls. Were I on the flight I would of demanded my money back from the airline. I paid for the protection and I did not get it due to their egos. The airline should have the stewardesses and or the counter people reprimanded. They were playing with passengers safety. Egos can kill? If anything happened everyone would of been covering to protect their backside at the expense of the travelling public.

I think BJM has a good suggestion.
Air Marshals should be required to be in uniform and have their firearm promenently displayed as a deterent. Instead of feeding their face, sleeping after the first 20 minutes of the flight, and passing gas in the first class cabin where the traveling public who PAYS for their ticket is seated. Where else can a Federal Agent get paid as much for doing as little?

we are living like a bunch of cowards,more people are killed by shoddy products in this country then terrorists,we should be worried more on how these planes are being maintained and not about air marshalls,anybody find those 3 mice from new jersey yet.

Scott,
Almost NO ONE pays for a first class seat. 90% upgrades buddy.

As a Delta Airlines Captain who flies internationally every month - I can attest to you all that BJM is a doofus and probably has never seen an air marshal in his whole life. For the sake of security, I will not point out all the ways in which he is WRONG. Let me assure you the air marshals that protect my aircraft have always been the greatest of professionals. They are always vigilant and ready to cover my six until I can get the bird safely on the ground.

Everybody should check out ABC News in Las Vegas. They just broke another story relating to the stupidity in the Air Marshals' management.

As a FAM, I shake my head at some of the asinine comments made by the unknowing.

FAMs in duty status are exempt from presenting paperwork to the flight crew. That FA obviously didn’t pay attention at her recurring training, and that “Captain” is flying a “feeder” airline for a reason…………

A bit about myself……….I am a college grad, Cum Laude with a 3.6 GPA, 4.0 in my major. I have a military background in special ops and military aviation. I worked in law enforcement on both the local and state level before being hired. I am a big meathead who looks terrible dressed up in a “GQ suit” I try to blend in by using other methods. It’s hard but can be done.

I volunteered for this job because on 9/11 I saw what the world saw and my blood ran cold. Everyday that I park myself in one of those seats I vow it will not happen on my jet, not today.

The pay is nice and I work with some of the best trained folks in the world….....except for our management.

Never in my 12 years of LEO experience and 24 years in the military have had I worked with more egotistical, cronies in my life. The SS managers took this job for one reason and one reason alone....MONEY. They saw it as a chance to pad the retirement nest a bit more.

If you don't think so, then why in over fours years has my ATSAC only flown with me once?? Why don't they shoot with us?? Why don't they put on the gear and fight with us?? I'll tell you why, they are whores worshipping the almighty dollar. Nothing more.

I will stand shoulder to shoulder with my partner and die for you the public, in the line of duty if need be.

I wouldn't urinate on my supervisor to put him out if he were on fire.
THAT'S how worthless they are......

FAMs are leaving in droves, most go back to their former Federal jobs and are welcomed back with open arms, others return to the civilian world. That number, the number that leaves federal service is the number reported to GAO as the number of FAMs that left. Transfers or rehires into Federal service never are reported.

Ask why the DC FO has over %)% attrition, ask why NYC is higher.

It all comes back to the managers.

Would the CEO of FedEx last if his job had over a 50% attrition rate?? I think not. So why do the FAMS managers hang on like a tick on a hound dog??? Simple. Cronyism.

Its simple;

FAMS are not required to fill out paperwork.

This has been the policy since at least 9/11.

The spokesman for Republic Airways is ignorant of this fact or just made it up to make the FAMs appear as though they did something wrong.

Since the SS managers have been so incompetant over the last five years, the Airlines have lost respect for the Federal Air Marshal program. It is the flying FAMs (non management) that pay for this negligence.

FAM management has consistently, at least in some FAM field offices, accepted erronious complaints by gate agents and flight attendents that don't even know the requirements or intricacies of FAM procedures.

Any gate agent can accuse any FAM of anything and it is usually accepted as gospel by management at certain field offices. Even when proven a false accusation, a verbal warning is on your record;

Some may ask, how does a verbal warning go on the record? Because the verbal warning is accompanied by a WRITTEN confirmation of the VERBAL warning.

The Federal Air Marshal program needs to begin to reassert their authority over the airline industry.
It is unbelievable that the same Federal air marshals who are assigned by thier management to stop a team of highly trained hi-jackers are routinely disciplined for not following vaguely written policy procedures that often comprimise the mission before the plane even takes off.
The sad part is the management is not disciplining the FAMs for comprimising the mission, rather they are disciplined for trying to reconcile a procedure that would have otherwise comprimised the mission.
The bottom line is that if all Federal Air Marshals followed every procedure as currently written, most of the missions being flown would be comprimised
before the planes took off.

Thats just some observations from a concerned citizen.

If US Airways actually pays one penny in settlement or apologizes to those Imams kicked off the flight - I will NEVER buy a ticket from them again. I will walk before I give money to an airline like that.

Amazing. Most of the comments here are so incredibly ignorant.

FAMs are not required to complete paperwork when flying on duty. The gate agents and crew were 100% wrong. Case closed.

As a FAM, I can tell you that this sort of thing happens every day, just not in this extreme fashion. Gate agents, after 5 YEARS, are unfamiliar with policies that are in place. (Wrong or right is a different question!) There is a political push-pull going on over who is in charge. The airline personnel have no respect for FAMs because they have seen that they can bully us around with no consequences. Upper management in the airline industry knows they can push us around because, to date, they have been setting dangerous policy without FAM management saying "No" to anything.

FAMS needs to put their foot down and TELL the airlines how it is going to work, how we will board, where we will have access, and who will be involved in the process. As long as businesspeople, with no concern for security other than their bottom line, control the FAMs, we will be executing poor policy, unsafe procedures, and even worse operational security as a result.

Unfortunately, if something major happens and we are there, the FAMs are put under that much more pressure to perform flawlessly and to make up for shortcomings in the actions of crew, gate agents, and management of both FAMS and the airlines.

Let me start by saying that I spent several years serving as a FAM. The most important thing to remember is that the FAMS' biggest protection is the element of surprise. Obviously, as law enforcement officers, the FAMS have to wait until a law is broken before they can realistically act. If the FAMS don't have the element of surprise, they have lost their biggest protection.

The thing I would like to leave you with is that none of the FAMS joined the Air Marshals to do anything other than protect the people of this nation and their right to the pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And they do this in a job (as a law enforcement officer) that doesn't lend itself to daily expressions of gratitude from those they protect.

"Rough men stand ready, so that gentle men may sleep at night."

George Orwell

Air Marshals only fly on 10% of the flights, and it's got to be a boring job. Why the DOT doesn't like armed pilots is beyond me.

*The armed pilots would always be there

*Their presence would constitute greater than the present 10%.

Ask yourself: would you rather fly on a flight knowing the pilots were armed, or would you rather hope that you were on that 1 in 10 that has an air marshal?

As far as "trusting pilots with guns", many are ex-military officers, and they already hold everyone's life in their hands.

Dave Petteys

I will agree with the 2 (or more) FAMS who have posted. They get no respect from the airlines. As a TSA agent who has to grant them access to catch their flights, most of their tickets are marked to show who/what they are. It is just not right, and I have told TSA managers and the local FAM-SAC.

Do they have paperwork? No. They show up, check in and head onto the flight. Are they pre-boarded? yes. Is it right? No. I had a LEO fly out the other day from my airport. He was the first one out the door. Before the old guy in the wheel chair. Before the lady with the two small kids. Could you tell he was a LEO? Probably not, but you knew something was up.

In reference to "BJM | Nov 22, 2006 2:32:06 PM". and "Joseph Chatelain | Nov 22, 2006 6:13:22 PM"

If either of you knew what in the hell you're talking about, you just might be interesting. Are you "flaming" this discussion? Or are you both so mis-informed? If you were serious about your comments, I can assure you as an airline industry employee that you're both WAY off the mark!

I definately side with the Air Marshal's on this one. Any airline that thinks a 90 pound flight attendant can do a better job protecting the public over an armed federal agent is no an airline I would fly on. The Marshal's are there for our protection, the flight attendant is there if we get thirsty. No your role.

Wow, Flying waitresses? We are responsible for the security of people on the plane too. Granted not all flight attendants appear like true professionals, but all of us take security very seriously. We do need to know who is lawfully carrying a gun, who to stop and who not to interfere with.
And whoever said the airlines profit off of Air Marshalls doesn't know what they are talking about.

As an airline employee who travels frequently, it is the FAMS themselves who give themselves away. I have seen plenty of time where the FAMS comes on and goes to the Purser and advises it is him without the requisite paperwork. This is quite common and easily id's these guys. How about some dicretion or better computer systems hookups for RES? Common sense guys and girls, common sense....

Chris does not know what he is talking about. He proves it in his statements which prove he does not know the policies and procedures for notifications. It does not need to be mentioned in this forum how he is so wrong, but there are three different areas. America should not be upset at his post. The FAMs do a fine job of being discreet despite the lack of cooperation they sometimes experience from airline employees, some like Chris, who do not understand SOPs or policy.

The so-called FAMs Chris believes he sees are probably just non-revs or pilots off duty riding home or to work.

All persons interested should consult Title 49 CFR 1544.219 and 1544.223 concerning most of the misinformation presented thus far. Knowledge and power of the pen will result in hefty fines when airlines violate these regulations. I am a FAM and I won't clarify anything else. The other misinformation probably makes my job easier. However, I will say, one should not take (FAM)discretion as having lack of authority. Some incidents only require pen power, others require force. I am capable and willing to use both as required.